BoA3 | Discussion

[akku]

I think someone posted in membs chat something like

2.5k on Facebook
8.5k on YouTube
15.7k on twitch

Not sure about the exact numbers but it's roughly that

Thanks man, so at least ~16K + 8.5K + 2.5K ~ 27K for sure.


I also right now went and checked aoe2 twitch stats, and found aoe2 had peak viewership of 20.5K yesterday.
I think we can safely assume at least 19.5K of that was BOA.

So, assuming the 11K across other platforms stayed constant, BOA crossed 30K live viewers?
Damn, if true that's amazing

 

[archxeon]

Been viewing aoe2 tournaments for about a decade now. Nothing beats watching innovative new strategies at the highest level. Hopefully we see more of BOA and with it these non meta maps.

 

[akku]

Damn, I think I underestimated GL a lot. I was predicting a 5-3 for AM

GL has proven that they are indeed equals to AM.
This series could've gone either way, and neither of us would've felt that it would've been an "upset". As others pointed out, if this was a BO5 or BO7, GL won this.
At such close levels, a single misplay or bad decision makes the difference, which is what I think happened here.

The grand finals delivered the top quality TGs that we all love, and for me personally, it's a more interesting than pure 1v1s.

Looking forward to the next 3v3 tournament. Or next Rage Forest!

I can only wish for the future that the rest of the teams shorten the gap between them and aM/GL. It would be nice seeing a different team winning.

I wish the same as well.

But unfortunately, I don't see this domination changing any time soon.

The sheer individual power in AM and GL at the moment is too large.
Between AM and GL, they have 7 out of the top 8 players (IMO). And on top of it, they have amazing team work too.

If you compare pure skills, disregarding team work/strategy, if AM is a 10, GL is 9.5. While WWP, Los Machos and Suomi are more like 7.

Especially in maps like those in BOA, the skill difference becomes far more prominent. Prepared strategies can only take you so long here.
In makes a more significant difference in maps which allow that, which is where WWP and Suomi shine IMO.

 

[akku]

What kind of details are you looking for

Average live viewership and peak live viewership for the grand finals.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

GL had by far the better draft and strats but aM mechanically are capable of overcoming all of this ( not always as seen yesterday ).

 

[Rorarimbo]

Thanks man, so at least ~16K + 8.5K + 2.5K ~ 27K for sure.


I also right now went and checked aoe2 twitch stats, and found aoe2 had peak viewership of 20.5K yesterday.
I think we can safely assume at least 19.5K of that was BOA.

So, assuming the 11K across other platforms stayed constant, BOA crossed 30K live viewers?
Damn, if true that's amazing

I can`t tell you other numbers but Membs peak was 15.6k ot 15.7k viewers I believe the twitch numbers should be more than 16k.

 

[Influenza]

GL had by far the better draft and strats but aM mechanically are capable of overcoming all of this ( not always as seen yesterday ).

definitely wasnt the case during the 2nd draft considering those civs GL had on the last map

 

[bird_person]

Players need some rest bro, if they had played without a single break, the level of performance would have dropped significantly.

I get that bro. But bro, the break was because of the draft system, not to give them a rest primarily.
"Hey here is a 15 Min break for the players, in the meantime we do XYZ"
would be better in that case imo, bro

 

[Liamsmalley7]

Damn, I think I underestimated GL a lot. I was predicting a 5-3 for AM

GL has proven that they are indeed equals to AM.
This series could've gone either way, and neither of us would've felt that it would've been an "upset". As others pointed out, if this was a BO5 or BO7, GL won this.
At such close levels, a single misplay or bad decision makes the difference, which is what I think happened here.

The grand finals delivered the top quality TGs that we all love, and for me personally, it's a more interesting than pure 1v1s.

Looking forward to the next 3v3 tournament. Or next Rage Forest!


I wish the same as well.

But unfortunately, I don't see this domination changing any time soon.

The sheer individual power in AM and GL at the moment is too large.
Between AM and GL, they have 7 out of the top 8 players (IMO). And on top of it, they have amazing team work too.

If you compare pure skills, disregarding team work/strategy, if AM is a 10, GL is 9.5. While WWP, Los Machos and Suomi are more like 7.

Especially in maps like those in BOA, the skill difference becomes far more prominent. Prepared strategies can only take you so long here.
In makes a more significant difference in maps which allow that, which is where WWP and Suomi shine IMO.

Yeah the gap between GL/aM and everybody else is a lot bigger than it ever was before, which is weird because you would expect it to be the other way around with Viper, Hera, Liereyy all having come back to the game somewhat recently. In the meantime, guys like Villese are playing better than they ever have before yet Suomi still got crushed despite being super competitive vs aM in BoA2.

And yet, despite the fact that Suomi are way below GL/aM, they are still easily above WWP and Los Machos imo. There are some pretty huge gaps between the teams right now

 

[Chrazini]

I get that bro. But bro, the break was because of the draft system, not to give them a rest primarily.
"Hey here is a 15 Min break for the players, in the meantime we do XYZ"
would be better in that case imo, bro

First, you said the breaks were too long, and now you're saying they should have more breaks and saying we didn't provide them any.

At the start of the series, players were told to simply go easy and take the time they needed. We were aware that this could become a long series, so the player's well-being was important to us. They knew they could request breaks pretty much between every game if they wanted or needed, though they mainly chose to continue without much delay. There were, however, also plenty of instances of reasonable breaks between games, as per request by the players.

Yes, there was also one stream break that was due to the players performing the supplemental draft, but they did, in fact, also take a break after this.

bro.

 

[MadeByJoe]

For me as a viewer a bo9 with team games is too much. 1v1 tend to be shorter, so there I think it's fine for a final (no idea from a players perspective). Yesterday I stopped wachting midway so I can later skip through the phases of the games where nothing happened.

 

[Pevio]

I always prefer longer sets, and I think a bo9 is correct for a grand final, even if it is 3v3 (assuming the semfinals were played the day before).

Here's an idea to eliminate the supplemental draft: start with a draft of 1 ban each, 20 civs each. Then after each game, each team "steals" one civ that the other team played that gets added into their pool of civs they can use for future games. Thus, by the time game 9 shows up, 8 civs have been added into each team's pool, so a 9-game set would be perfect. This format would make teams reluctant to use a civ to prevent the other team getting access to it, but it would cause more decision making and might make the breaks between games even longer.

 

[oozkan]

This break thing kind of turned into ATP ranking discussion.

Let's say, ATP rankings promotes being active and playing whole set without breaks promotes team depth, mental resilience and endurance.

I am on a quite peaceful mood today no more promoting dramas.

 

[Tarsiz]

Great tournament, as always. Congratulations to Memb and his team for hosting. I think it was a really nice touch to get Chrazini and Rorarimbo on voice and camera at the end of the event as well, to show these guys some well deserved recognition for all the hard work put into making it an enjoyable event for players, casters and viewers.

Heartbreaking result for GL yesterday in the final at they really felt close, and games like Savannah, Grand Bara and especially Desert Slope could have gone their way had a few things worked out better for them. But that was not meant to be, and aM deserved their win. Impressive performance from them.

Of all the teams out there, it feels like aM has the highest "floor", i.e. even when they don't play their best or are out-strategized, they are still insanely hard to beat. It strikes me how well they're able to read the game and adapt depending on the situation. I'd also say that last BoA Liereyy seemed to be the standout performer, but this time MbL and Hera have consistently impressed me through the whole event.

Last thing I'll say is a BO9 feels too long.
Looking at Memb's vod, the final started around 0:42:30 and the final GG was called on Beachfight at 6:34:07 - that is 5 hours and 52 minutes of playing with very little downtime and breaks in between games. Especially for the 4 madlads, Hera, Liereyy, MbL and TaToH, who played all nine games.

For comparison sakes, the 2012 Australian Open final between Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic lasted 5 hours and 53 minutes - the longest Grand Slam final ever played. The players were so exhausted at the end they had to sit during the trophy presentation.

Of course, tennis is more physical than Age of Empires, but also has breaks every two games so the players can sit down, drink and eat, and compose themselves. High level AoE 2 requires a ton of focus and constant attention from the players, and in my opinion it is not realistic to hope the quality of gameplay will not decrease - albeit only slightly - during very long sets. For the future, I'd like to see either more frequent breaks or, preferably shorter sets with a BO7 being the maximum for a team game event. BO9 only seems suited for Empire Wars, and even then, does feel very long.

Congrats to aM and GL for an amazing performance, and Memb and his team for a beautiful tournament.

 

[LowEloNobody]

I've seen a lot of commentary around the Bo9 format being too long for TGs both here and in a few discords, and I have to say I agree. I actually lost some hype around game 6-7 when it was 4-2. It was just a bit fatiguing to watch 6 hours of AoE in a single sitting.

If tournament hosts prefer the longer final, could they keep the Bo9 but have the first few games played as recorded games? I.e. play 4 games beforehand, and then 5 games the day of the final?
I understand that this is tough with the semis being on a Saturday, but those could also be played the week beforehand and cast as recorded games.
Long story short, recorded games are good and we should have more of them, especially if it allows players to perform at their absolute peak level for all games

 

[bird_person]

First, you said the breaks were too long, and now you're saying they should have more breaks and saying we didn't provide them any.

At the start of the series, players were told to simply go easy and take the time they needed. We were aware that this could become a long series, so the player's well-being was important to us. They knew they could request breaks pretty much between every game if they wanted or needed, though they mainly chose to continue without much delay. There were, however, also plenty of instances of reasonable breaks between games, as per request by the players.

Yes, there was also one stream break that was due to the players performing the supplemental draft, but they did, in fact, also take a break after this.

bro.

I'm not talking about the reasonable breaks. I mostly mean the long pause which included the draft.
I think it was like 30 mins between Game 5 and 6. Also 20 mins between 7 and 8 (hope i'm not mixing anything up).
--> I disliked those and I lost a bit of the hype. If it would have been clear, there is a 10/15/20/30 minute break I think that would have been better as a viewer.

But Bro when did i say i want more breaks or that you didnt provide any? :D

I hope i made my point clear and still amazing event!

 

[The_ChinChilla]

Congrats to all those involved! Awesome tournament!
Im very happy to see most players performed their best! Especially MBL, Vivi and Rubenstock, totally dominating in some games. (big names performed great as usual).

Also want to add, i liked the BO9 finals, 6hrs of games is great, though as a note of caution, organizers should hv some alternate plans if some games exceed 3hrs. (like if any of the first 3 games exceed 3hrs, it will be BO7 instead of BO9)

 

[Brlr716]

Epic final! Congrats to all.

As the esport scene is getting more competitive, the production is getting better, prize pool is higher as well. Players need to get everything prepared mentally & physically.

It is quite obvious GL's level dropped significantly in the last few games, more mistakes and bad judgement made. But long break is not an option for me personally, the tournament can last forever otherwise... bad for viewer and everything. Short break is all good to me but time has to be limited .

Also I think BO9 is reasonable for me BO7 seems a bit underwhelming for a S-tier tournament.

 

[Brlr716]

Except the production is excellent like other S-tier tournaments, I'd like to share my 2cents for improvements:

- I hope there are mods that can make players in TG more distinguished. That might attract some new viewers for cleaner visual. (Like different Blue colors vs different Red colors?)

- I know this is extremely difficult, but the main POV is a bit too jumpy for me. You guys can think about dividing screen? scale up the map? replay?

- Vinch is a good co-caster in general, very insightful, loved it. But he is not a pro. TBH I'm not a big fan of Memb's casting style but Memb understands the importance of describing what the screen is showing, which is the critical part for being a caster, and Vinch sometimes fail to do so from time to time. Also I agree Vinch's voice is not very clear (mechanical problem I guess) especially compared to Memb. Anyway don't get me wrong I still quite enjoy his casting with Memb. I believe 2 pro casters with 1 top player as a co-caster giving more analysis and insight when being asked can be considered in the future.

 

[akku]

Yeah the gap between GL/aM and everybody else is a lot bigger than it ever was before, which is weird because you would expect it to be the other way around with Viper, Hera, Liereyy all having come back to the game somewhat recently. In the meantime, guys like Villese are playing better than they ever have before yet Suomi still got crushed despite being super competitive vs aM in BoA2.

And yet, despite the fact that Suomi are way below GL/aM, they are still easily above WWP and Los Machos imo. There are some pretty huge gaps between the teams right now

Hera is definitely at his peak right now. He has been grinding non stop for the last ~ 2 months.
True for Lierrey and Viper though, they're not at their best shape for sure.

I think this applies a bit to other teams players as well. Yo is not in his best shape, and I think Lyx and Vivi aren't playing regularly. In Suomi, I don't think Max is playing often either.

The comparison I was making was for pure individual skills though, disregarding team-work/strategy. I'd say a combo of Slam+Miguel+Dogao or Yo+Lyx+Vivi are just as strong as Villese+Max+Ruben (maybe Los Machos a bit higher)........ in these teams, strategy and team work makes the difference.

 

[akku]

I can`t tell you other numbers but Membs peak was 15.6k ot 15.7k viewers I believe the twitch numbers should be more than 16k.

Yeah, that's what I was saying.
Twitch peak for aoe2 on Sunday was 20.5K, according to Sullygnome.

So, there were 5K more viewers, apart from Memb's peak. Which makes sense, since there are others casting the BOA as well.
Out of 5K, I'd guess at least 4K would be casting BOA

So, maybe BOA hit a peak of 19.5K in twitch alone.
As for the other platforms, idk. But, I guess it's at least 11K according to the person who posted the numbers (8.5K youtube, 2.5K facebook)

 

[ltm]

Great event as awlays, but in my opinion BO9 for the final was definitely too long.

 

[akku]

Great event as awlays, but in my opinion BO9 for the final was definitely too long.

IT was only too long because the two teams were evenly matched.

Each game went on for a very long time, because the teams were so matched that they couldn't just stomp over the enemy and finish fast.

This would've been very long, even if it was just a BO7 (though we would've got only 6 games since GL would've taken it 4-2).
While in contrast, the BO7 in semis ended fast, because most of the games themselves were short.

 

[plfan]

I've seen a lot of commentary around the Bo9 format being too long for TGs both here and in a few discords, and I have to say I agree. I actually lost some hype around game 6-7 when it was 4-2. It was just a bit fatiguing to watch 6 hours of AoE in a single sitting.

If tournament hosts prefer the longer final, could they keep the Bo9 but have the first few games played as recorded games? I.e. play 4 games beforehand, and then 5 games the day of the final?
I understand that this is tough with the semis being on a Saturday, but those could also be played the week beforehand and cast as recorded games.
Long story short, recorded games are good and we should have more of them, especially if it allows players to perform at their absolute peak level for all games

Personally I prefer watching live event with webcams etc. It's harder to be hyped for me or cheer for someone if i know that games was allready played.
Maybe playing Bo9 in two days instead of one would be a solution?
For me 6 hour AoE2 final was great but undestand why it's too long for someone (my girlfriend fell asleep while watching it with me 11)

 

[Oli King]

My feedback:
a: I loved the face cams!!
I understand it takes some space, but its 100% worth it (for me).

b: I enjoyed the POV like a lot!
Its the first time used, so it will only get better. The best use imo was in dark age when laming or when when going forward. Normally caster would just show the action (f.e. the scout laming a boar) but what about the suspense when you manage your eco and dont know whats happening in the front. That moment you come back to your scout/forward vills. You really can experience it with the player.

Anyway, thanks to the organizers and all people involved