Biggest AOE 2 DE PUP changes

[Influenza]

One of the highlights of my day is logging on to AoEZone and like clockwork, Influenza is complaining about the devs/balance/pathing/the game in general. I've never met someone who plays so much, who hates the game so much lmao.

I think this patch is absolutely fantastic. They did a great job making a lot of tweaks to units, upgrades, and civs. I don't agree with every single change, but I understand the logic with almost all of them.

The fact is, we've accepted for years that the militia line just gets shredded by all ranged units and we're OK with that. Why? A champion has 1/2 the HP of a cavalier, archers still will deal with them fine, they're just not going to be hard countered by arbalests. They never should have been. This will actually force Arb players to use a meatshield, what a concept!

i'm not sure why a no name like yourself is so totally love with me that he needs to respond to my every post but im flattered <3

Interesting to see that you have assessed this patch as absolutely fantastic without even playing it yet but you do you dude.

 

[Crawsack]

i'm not sure why a no name like yourself is so totally love with me that he needs to respond to my every post but im flattered <3

Interesting to see that you have assessed this patch as absolutely fantastic without even playing it yet but you do you dude.

Because, I don't need to play a patch to have an initial educated opinion on it? You already have a negative opinion on it, but apparently that's valid. Nothing in this patch is "complete overhaul of all civs in a 23 year old game." Although there are a LOT of changes in the patch, none of them are enormous, and if anything most of the changes are helping older civs and units that have been essentially ignored for 20 years.

Some of us get tired of xbow/kts vs Britons/Franks every. single. game. and there are now viable options for a lot of different civs. It doesn't take playing on a patch to have a good idea on how these changes will affect gameplay.

Elo ≠ game knowledge/understanding. It's cool that you consider me a "no-name" but your opinion is not more informed or more important that mine <3

 

[Tuunbaq]

I've never met someone who plays so much, who hates the game so much lmao.

Any player of War Thunder is like that too ahah

 

[shm0wt]

Who in their right mind wants a complete overhaul of all civs in a 23 year old game. And every patch no matter what you have to readjust to a new set of bugs and new unit behavior. No one values consistency anymore lul

A truly incredible take. One of the all time great AoEZone opinions IMO.

I like to imagine how Influenza navigates daily life. Watching the world change around them with blank incomprehension. "What's this new thing doing where an old thing once was? Who would want to make an old thing new again?" walking down the street, "why does that 23 year old shop have a new sign and window display? Nobody values consistency anymore" going to the bank "there are new customers and staff members here since I came in three years ago! Why do they always have to overhaul everything" going to a restaurant where the seating layout has recently changed, randomly crashing around, banging into tables and chairs "how do they expect me to adjust to this new behaviour?" observing ants building an anthill in their back yard "the anthill was fine at exactly the size and shape it was two decades ago, damn this new set of bugs"

 

[Zeev]

I like most of the changes. Infantry really needed more love. Infantry is still slow, so you can micro them with archers and run circles around them with cavalry.

One change I would've liked to see is either a buff to battering rams or making capped ram available at castle age. There's no good way to deal with castles in castle age. Dropping a castle in castle age usually turns the game into a race to imp.

 

[wAkKo]

Spanish buff looks interesting. Buffed drush and they can also afford the gold for bloodlines after loom + horse collar + double bit axe. Looking forward to see The Lord testing build orders and strategies.

 

[Tocaraca]

Anyone complaining about this needs to STFU. This is the best balance patch I have ever seen for AoE2 and I just might play again

 

[Influenza]

Because, I don't need to play a patch to have an initial educated opinion on it? You already have a negative opinion on it, but apparently that's valid. Nothing in this patch is "complete overhaul of all civs in a 23 year old game." Although there are a LOT of changes in the patch, none of them are enormous, and if anything most of the changes are helping older civs and units that have been essentially ignored for 20 years.

Some of us get tired of xbow/kts vs Britons/Franks every. single. game. and there are now viable options for a lot of different civs. It doesn't take playing on a patch to have a good idea on how these changes will affect gameplay.

Elo ≠ game knowledge/understanding. It's cool that you consider me a "no-name" but your opinion is not more informed or more important that mine <3

My negative opinion is not so much about the details of this patch in specific, but on the constant changes to the feel of the game. One patch melee units can never surround ranged units, next patch the pathing is mostly fine, then the following patch units are constantly passing through each other. And it's not so interesting to me to relearn bonuses and tech trees of civs that have existed for 23 years.

But surely you are one of those people who believe having 45 civs with most of the newer ones having out of place gimmicks is somehow a good thing. It definitely makes sense that someone like you would fall in love with a patch without even playing it

A truly incredible take. One of the all time great AoEZone opinions IMO.

I like to imagine how Influenza navigates daily life. Watching the world change around them with blank incomprehension. "What's this new thing doing where an old thing once was? Who would want to make an old thing new again?" walking down the street, "why does that 23 year old shop have a new sign and window display? Nobody values consistency anymore" going to the bank "there are new customers and staff members here since I came in three years ago! Why do they always have to overhaul everything" going to a restaurant where the seating layout has recently changed, randomly crashing around, banging into tables and chairs "how do they expect me to adjust to this new behaviour?" observing ants building an anthill in their back yard "the anthill was fine at exactly the size and shape it was two decades ago, damn this new set of bugs"

Apparently it's too much to expect a game where units behave approximately the same way from patch to patch.

It's interesting how in the recent release of the beta of CSGO's successor, it's most important for all the players that the game feels approximately the same in terms of shooting and movement. And the new game is even built on a completely new engine. Yet with AoE2 i'm regarded for expecting some baseline consistency between monthly patches.

 

[Crawsack]

My negative opinion is not so much about the details of this patch in specific, but on the constant changes to the feel of the game. One patch melee units can never surround ranged units, next patch the pathing is mostly fine, then the following patch units are constantly passing through each other.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the issues we've encountered with DE, especially in the first year where it felt like the pathing went completely off the rails at times was very frustrating! But also not surprising given the huge amount of changes and overhauling they did to make DE, while sticking with some ancient coding.

In my experience, pathing issues are more the exception than the norm. Yes, there are still bugs/glitches that are irritating no doubt, but some of that is just part of playing a video game with code from 24 years ago.

And it's not so interesting to me to relearn bonuses and tech trees of civs that have existed for 23 years.

That's... an interesting opinion. I don't care whether something's new, or old, I care if the game's reasonably balanced. This game already has an insanely steep skill curve and tons of stuff to remember, marginally adjusting the cost of certain upgrades and adding a tech for infantry is not really that hard to grasp.

But surely you are one of those people who believe having 45 civs with most of the newer ones having out of place gimmicks is somehow a good thing. It definitely makes sense that someone like you would fall in love with a patch without even playing it.

I like mechanics that are fun to play with, not just "new" ones. I hate Shrivamsha riders, love Urumi Swordsmen and Coustillier, love Steppe Lancers, don't care for Rathas and the pointless ranged/melee switch mechanic.


You seem like a lot of fun at parties! Do you complain about everything in your life, or just AoE2? I assume your condescending approach probably serves you well in your day to day.

 

[The Bloodless]

Does anybody else feel like the infantry buffs are the wrong direction for the game? Champion line is so stale and "hands-off" -- you can't particularly micro them

 

[Tocaraca]

Does anybody else feel like the infantry buffs are the wrong direction for the game? Champion line is so stale and "hands-off" -- you can't particularly micro them

Bro you have 2 apm why are you complaining

 

[Crawsack]

Does anybody else feel like the infantry buffs are the wrong direction for the game? Champion line is so stale and "hands-off" -- you can't particularly micro them

.....Why is that a problem. Can you micro towers? Not every unit/building needs to require a ton of micro in order for it to be viable. The whole game in general requires a ton of APM and processing ability, it shouldn't be solely dictated by who can stop micro arbs the best.

 

[Influenza]

You seem like a lot of fun at parties! Do you complain about everything in your life, or just AoE2? I assume your condescending approach probably serves you well in your day to day.

you walked into this thread immediately belittling others and then proceed to cry about condescension lul

 

[Crawsack]

you walked into this thread immediately belittling others and then proceed to cry about condescension lul

11111111111

 

[harooooo]

Top nomad civs are also kinda fixed and I didn't see it mentioned here yet:

Malians and Persians now can't make super instant fishing because The +50 wood for persians is given after TC is built, and the -15% wood discount for malians doesnt work on first TC. And for spanish the build bonus doesn't apply for first TC.

 

[kalpit00]

Top nomad civs are also kinda fixed and I didn't see it mentioned here yet:

Malians and Persians now can't make super instant fishing because The +50 wood for persians is given after TC is built, and the -15% wood discount for malians doesnt work on first TC. And for spanish the build bonus doesn't apply for first TC.

If that's the case, I am not sure if I like it, those civs had an identity on nomad specific maps.

 

[uberkerl]

so Spanish are even more ahead on Nomad than the competition than before? or did the 30% faster building bonus also applied after the TC comes online?

 

[LowEloNobody]

Can't wait to see people complaining about champ line being too oppressive, 6 PA is no joke, specially for all those civs that already had a bonus on that line, while you can make the argument that HC counters infantry, you need almost 6 minutes btw imperial age and chemistry so GL.

Mayans and aztecs got a huge nerf for them, specially considering how bad aztecs are now outside arena, the way to play mesos civs and adjusting the economy will be hurt cause that 5 food is 25% so it ain't a small nerf and don't pretend like if aztecs or mayans are top civs in 2023.

Vikings will rise as a top 1 civ again, their champs already beat battle eles so you guys figure it out the impact.

6 minutes? It's 100 seconds research time, so less than 2 minutes.
You will have the first hand cannon out before he can tech two-handed + champion

 

[kalpit00]

so Spanish are even more ahead on Nomad than the competition than before? or did the 30% faster building bonus also applied after the TC comes online?

no it used to be that you could make the first TC and dock faster on nomad before.

Now after the patch, the bonus only applies after the TC is built, so the first TC (and dock if built before the TC is up which is usually the case) builds at same speed as other civs.

This is actually a bit of a nerf to Spanish opening on Nomad, as they used to get a solid start (a fishing ship and vil faster than generic civs), which kind of helped them a lot vs "fast feudal water" plays from other water civs.

But I guess since the other top civs like Persians and Malians also cannot make an immediate fishing ship will keep all the balance the same, and actually make these 3 civs openings a bit slower. Still faster than generic civs, but not as dominant as before

 

[crazyyoco]

I don't get why people want some kind of complete overhaul of usefulness of infantry? If you want for infantry top be as strong as knights, archers, go play aoe4, no need to change the game, I like playing already.

 

[wahaha]

Low elo thoughts:

Ethiopians: absolutely S-class, best archers, best SO, & SHOTELS IS NOW KING OF MELEE UNITS

Goths: hunt lasting longer makes also their extra hunt carrying capacity useful (was useless before)
But its 2023, why the heck GOTHS STILL DON'T HAVE STONE WALLS?!?!
If there's one civ not worthy of having stone walls, its definitely the Poles!!!!! (Cumans is in the right place as-is)

Incas: that food discount is utter trash, Incas would mostly make Archers and EW anyways, plus slingers and Kamayuks food cost got upward adjusted, I see some bad retailing tactics here, raising price first and offering a Xmas discount to lure customers.

Btw, Incas now hv 2 extra llamas at start? Or their original civ bonus is removed?!

 

[kalpit00]

Low elo thoughts:

Ethiopians: absolutely S-class, best archers, best SO, & SHOTELS IS NOW KING OF MELEE UNITS

Goths: hunt lasting longer makes also their extra hunt carrying capacity useful (was useless before)
But its 2023, why the heck GOTHS STILL DON'T HAVE STONE WALLS?!?!
If there's one civ not worthy of having stone walls, its definitely the Poles!!!!! (Cumans is in the right place as-is)

Incas: that food discount is utter trash, Incas would mostly make Archers and EW anyways, plus slingers and Kamayuks food cost got upward adjusted, I see some bad retailing tactics here, raising price first and offering a Xmas discount to lure customers.

Btw, Incas now hv 2 extra llamas at start? Or their original civ bonus is removed?!

Its a team bonus, incas will only get 1 llama at start. All the 4 players in the team will get 1 llama if they incas in the team. (Not sure what would happen if you have 2, 3 or all Incas players in the team -> will you each 2, 3 or 4 llamas at start lol? probably not)

 

[uberkerl]

no, team bonuses dont stack.

 

[kalpit00]

Love the incas and ethiopians change tbh. I was such a fan of ethiopians getting Heavy Camel in the first place, main reason being Camels along with xbows is such a powerful combo, and they still lack bloodlines so it's not like they will be overpowered (Camels in general are quite a weak unit vs anything except cavalry)

And as long as the UT is balanced, ethiopians heavy camels and Shotel warriors taking -3 damage from Cavalry (don't know if this includes Camels) only is completely fine. It's not like Knight line will not do well vs shotels, shotels have such low hp they will still melt to ranged or any other infantry counter, it's just they will be able to survive 1-2 more hits vs knight lines, allowing them to deal 1-2 more hits. As for Camels, similarly allows them a couple more hits vs Knights, and they still lack bloodlines so the balance should be completely fine

Incas on the other hand, are interesting. I hope people don't sleep on the Food discount, Incas are a civ which usually lacked from not having an eco bonuses. That's why they felt worse compared to Mayans and Aztecs. Still, they get a few small bonuses here and there. One extra llama at start, the houses with 10 population (only save 50-75 wood till start of feudal age, not a lot).

These bonuses were still not enough in the grand scheme of things, and Mayans Archers/El Dorado eagles in imp or Aztecs eagles/monks were more dominant. Now, with eagles becoming more expensive, and this Food discount, allows Incas to make Eagles at the cost 18.75 (19) Food in Castle age, and the old 20 Food in Feudal age. I think this might allow them to pull off the similar Eagle Powerplay in Castle age, BUT only vs Ranged units, simply because Incas don't have the Monk bonus of Aztecs. It could still work vs knights, but unlike the tanky aztec monks, incas monks might still die to lcavs or xbows easier.
However, that's not all, the food discount applies to Pikes and Skirms as well. Pike upgrade has become cheaper now, Incas also have Slingers vs a potential Longsword counter to their eagles. All I am saying is Incas used to be a civ which had tons of counter units, they only used to lack the economy and their army comps became a bit too all over the place, not as streamlined as common comps. In the hands of a strong macro player with good transitions, I think Incas can very easily outperform a lot of civs in Castle age and close the game out.

 

[JayGould]

Can't wait to see every game being played like it's goths mirror. Not gonna happen in this patch, but we are slowly moving in that direction.

How? Goths are currently top three worst civilizations in the game. Giving them an eco buff is not going to make them S-tier.