Big scoob player Toxic

[IYIyTh]

I made a post saying that if Big Scoob was a top 5 player he'd have nothing to fear, his behavior would be excused. What ensued was a beautiful illustration of it being true in the reaction of certain folks to immediately defend the actions of players who weren't named. Some -- like Vince here, claimed that top players in aoe2 have never said or done anything comparable to Big Scoob, before being laughably corrected by others in the community. He decided to change his argument, that those things in the recent past don't happen now. Even prefacing his most recent posts with "it can't be that bad." But they do happen now. Repeatedly.

If folks don't say anything -- it gets brushed under the rug and the fanboys flock to excuse it.

The only way it could get more hilarious is if Big Scoob were to actually drastically improve his ranking so I could roll my eyes during the tournament interviews as vince claimed he was reborn as a reformed nice Mr. Clean.

It's incredibly amusing and I don't believe your language appropriate given this the perfect place for such conversation to take place.

 

[nimanoe]

But they do happen now. Repeatedly.

What are you even talking about? We've already discussed the racist quote from Capoch, the language that got MbL banned and Hera's behaviour when playing from a smurf.

If the pro's really did something comparable to what Big Scoob did why not post it and proof that you're right?

 

[vince]

Some -- like Vince here, claimed that top players in aoe2 have never said or done anything comparable to Big Scoob

please show me where I said that.

Even prefacing his most recent posts with "it can't be that bad."

please show me where I said that.

But they do happen now. Repeatedly.

If folks don't say anything -- it gets brushed under the rug and the fanboys flock to excuse it.

interesting you say this, yet you bring nothing to the table to expose these events that are supposedly happening. you repeatedly make vague attacks, then when asked for proof, you hide behind the "oh you're just not worth my time" excuse, while publicly lying on me, making claims of statements and stances I made that were never made.

 

[bird_person]

I made a post saying that if Big Scoob was a top 5 player he'd have nothing to fear, his behavior would be excused. What ensued was a beautiful illustration of it being true in the reaction of certain folks to immediately defend the actions of players who weren't named. Some -- like Vince here, claimed that top players in aoe2 have never said or done anything comparable to Big Scoob, before being laughably corrected by others in the community. He decided to change his argument, that those things in the recent past don't happen now. Even prefacing his most recent posts with "it can't be that bad." But they do happen now. Repeatedly.

If folks don't say anything -- it gets brushed under the rug and the fanboys flock to excuse it.

The only way it could get more hilarious is if Big Scoob were to actually drastically improve his ranking so I could roll my eyes during the tournament interviews as vince claimed he was reborn as a reformed nice Mr. Clean.

It's incredibly amusing and I don't believe your language appropriate given this the perfect place for such conversation to take place.

I'm sorry i insulted you. In my eyes being called a "twat" is not a big insult and can come from a place of respect. but i got why my post was deleted. this is the internet and we don't know each other.
I respect you and the point you are trying to make. because of that i struggle to understand the way you bring those things up and how you argue. Instead of just pointing out what's wrong and discussing about that, you go nearly directly to the part where you beat around the bush and rant about how your point has been proven.
Tbh i don't really see that but it seems to me you really want it to be true. I don't think Hera, MbL, or Capoch have been excused in their behaviour and neither did they "get away" with everything. I think a lot of people dislike them because of things like that.
What is appropriate or not in terms of punishment for "toxic" behaviour, slurs, homophobic insults is an interesting and important conversation that should be held.

 

[IYIyTh]

What are you even talking about? We've already discussed the racist quote from Capoch, the language that got MbL banned and Hera's behaviour when playing from a smurf.

If the pro's really did something comparable to what Big Scoob did why not post it and proof that you're right?

It's about a pattern of behavior.

It's not about a shitbaggery Olympics. Your post is just a handful of examples of top players who have acted comparably in the past.

The argument is not and has not ever been that a top 5 player has done things on a more frequent basis than or egregiously as Big Scoob (though as your post indicates there are several shining examples where they have acted remarkably similarly,) -- but that if they had -- many would flock to their defense provided they were a top five player and bury it.

A certain pro player routinely deletes their vod's after throwing tantrums, to the point I don't even have to name them and the entire community knows who one is talking about. I believe this week they referred to themselves as a ****** while having an absolute meltdown merely because of the playstyle of another professional player in a random ranked game. People excuse it as immaturity but in the next breath praise them because of their abilities to click faster and more efficiently than another.

I propose one can't claim to have a community that is welcoming, inviting, and truly professional if its leaders are routinely and obviously other than. Nor to truly care about what Big Scoob says if you don't hold top players accountable.

It's deferential treatment and it's nauseating. If one made a topic regarding a pro player you'd have their teammates and other public figures extolling how the topic needed to be moderated because their negative interactions being broadcast represent a smear campaign rather than letting one's actions speak for themselves.

If Big Scoob could crack that top 5, I'd expect they'd receive similar treatment.

 

[vince]

so now apparently a person calling themselves a bad name (over their own failure, not in any way shape or form insulting the opposing player) and getting frustrated over some weird misfortune is on the same level as (or remotely comparable to) repeatedly cursing out, insulting the families of, and wishing disease and death on opposing players

and somehow THAT is the proof used to back up the claim that "What's funny is how the community would be falling over backwards to explain away the behavior if he was a top 5 player instead of a top 200." when referring to behavior that a guy like big scoob has been known for doing for some time now

lets see how far these goalposts keep moving lol

 

[Nicov]

It's about a pattern of behavior.

It's not about a shitbaggery Olympics. Your post is just a handful of examples of top players who have acted comparably in the past.

The argument is not and has not ever been that a top 5 player has done things on a more frequent basis than or egregiously as Big Scoob (though as your post indicates there are several shining examples where they have acted remarkably similarly,) -- but that if they had -- many would flock to their defense provided they were a top five player and bury it.

A certain pro player routinely deletes their vod's after throwing tantrums, to the point I don't even have to name them and the entire community knows who one is talking about. I believe this week they referred to themselves as a ****** while having an absolute meltdown merely because of the playstyle of another professional player in a random ranked game. People excuse it as immaturity but in the next breath praise them because of their abilities to click faster and more efficiently than another.

I propose one can't claim to have a community that is welcoming, inviting, and truly professional if its leaders are routinely and obviously other than. Nor to truly care about what Big Scoob says if you don't hold top players accountable.

It's deferential treatment and it's nauseating. If one made a topic regarding a pro player you'd have their teammates and other public figures extolling how the topic needed to be moderated because their negative interactions being broadcast represent a smear campaign rather than letting one's actions speak for themselves.

If Big Scoob could crack that top 5, I'd expect they'd receive similar treatment.

Are you actually comparing someone wishing everyone and their family to die of cancer on a daily basis, to someone with anger management issues?

 

[bird_person]

It's about a pattern of behavior.

It's not about a shitbaggery Olympics. Your post is just a handful of examples of top players who have acted comparably in the past.

The argument is not and has not ever been that a top 5 player has done things on a more frequent basis than or egregiously as Big Scoob (though as your post indicates there are several shining examples where they have acted remarkably similarly,) -- but that if they had -- many would flock to their defense provided they were a top five player and bury it.

The whole argument is based on your assumption.

A certain pro player routinely deletes their vod's after throwing tantrums, to the point I don't even have to name them and the entire community knows who one is talking about. I believe this week they referred to themselves as a ****** while having an absolute meltdown merely because of the playstyle of another professional player in a random ranked game. People excuse it as immaturity but in the next breath praise them because of their abilities to click faster and more efficiently than another.

Would you compare this behaviour to big scoob's? Same level/less bad/worse?

I propose one can't claim to have a community that is welcoming, inviting, and truly professional if its leaders are routinely and obviously other than. Nor to truly care about what Big Scoob says if you don't hold top players accountable.

It's deferential treatment and it's nauseating. If one made a topic regarding a pro player you'd have their teammates and other public figures extolling how the topic needed to be moderated because their negative interactions being broadcast represent a smear campaign rather than letting one's actions speak for themselves.

well what should happen in your ideal world? What is the apropriate reaction if you say a bad word on stream/have a meltdown cause you are being lamed? You are vague in that aspect

 

[IYIyTh]

Are you actually comparing someone wishing everyone and their family to die of cancer on a daily basis, to someone with anger management issues?

And if we claim Big Scoob just has anger management or maturity issues that absolves him of his various behavior(s)? I think not. It's an obvious double standard.

 

[IYIyTh]

The whole argument is based on your assumption.

Would you compare this behaviour to big scoob's? Same level/less bad/worse?


well what should happen in your ideal world? What is the apropriate reaction if you say a bad word on stream/have a meltdown cause you are being lamed? You are vague in that aspect

I can confidently say with certainly that big scoob has not said anything more or less offensive than certain top pro players. The frequency is irrelevant to me, personally. I'm not sure if one gets bonus points for not meeting their homophobic or racial slurs quota for a given quarter.

As to what should happen -- I'm not quite sure, perhaps a separate topic. I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy and incongruence on the forum when people claim to want certain aspects of the forum moderated, yet those requests seem and remain quite tribal -- as they participate actively in the denigration of other players so long as they are not top tier.

 

[IYIyTh]

so now apparently a person calling themselves a bad name (over their own failure, not in any way shape or form insulting the opposing player) and getting frustrated over some weird misfortune is on the same level as (or remotely comparable to) repeatedly cursing out, insulting the families of, and wishing disease and death on opposing players

and somehow THAT is the proof used to back up the claim that "What's funny is how the community would be falling over backwards to explain away the behavior if he was a top 5 player instead of a top 200." when referring to behavior that a guy like big scoob has been known for doing for some time now

lets see how far these goalposts keep moving lol

I hate to break it to you, but you are the proof.

 

[vince]

I hate to break it to you, but you are the proof.

and what exactly did I explain? other than the fact that what you referred to is not comparable whatsoever to wishing cancer and death on people?

 

[IYIyTh]

and what exactly did I explain? other than the fact that what you referred to is not comparable whatsoever to wishing cancer and death on people?

You perfectly explained the point when you went out of your way to defend a player who wasn't even named. Further when you denied certain actions had never occurred out of hand. Further yet again when you then suggested that their frequency was acceptable or that they had changed, only relenting past actions did occur only after several pointed their occurrences over your denials for you.

I am not going to debate with you with what level of childish behavior, racial and homophobic slurs equate to a single occurrence of a Big Scoob sighting. I have sought to establish that such behavior would be overlooked if he were merely a better player, and that others would make excuses for his behavior.

I think there is more than enough here to demonstrate that.

 

[Nicov]

And if we claim Big Scoob just has anger management or maturity issues that absolves him of his various behavior(s)? I think not. It's an obvious double standard.

No one would defend a top5 who behaves like big scoob. But feel free to believe the opposite just for the sake of believing SO. You will need something stronger to back up such theories. Writing down 100 walls of texts in 1 thread repeating the same thing over and over won't convince anyone, since there has never been someone like big scoob at the very top

 

[IYIyTh]

No one would defend a top5 who behaves like big scoob. But feel free to believe the opposite just for the sake of believing SO. You will need something stronger to back up such theories. Writing down 100 walls of texts in 1 thread repeating the same thing over and over won't convince anyone, since there has never been someone like big scoob at the very top.

Perhaps not to such an extent, but there certainly have been top5 players who have acted like him -- and they get a pass, or a trove of people wishing to excuse away or moderate any commentary on their action(s).


C'est la vie.

Personally, I don't agree -- I think if Big Scoob magically improved 200 spots and won himself a tournament he'd have his own following and apologists extolling his reformation. Besides, after he started winning serious money he'd probably at least try to hide that behavior. If they were smart***

 

[Nicov]

Perhaps not to such an extent, but there certainly have been top5 players who have acted like him -- and they get a pass, or a trove of people wishing to excuse away or moderate any commentary on their action(s).


C'est la vie.

Eh, actually when some aoe celebrities did/say something stupid they got called out in aoezone and received tons of hatred. Whether it was deserved or not is a different story.

 

[vince]

You perfectly explained the point when you went out of your way to defend a player who wasn't even named. Further when you denied certain actions had never occurred out of hand. Further yet again when you then suggested that their frequency was acceptable or that they had changed, only relenting past actions did occur only after several pointed their occurrences over your denials for you.

I am not going to debate with you with what level of childish behavior, racial and homophobic slurs equate to a single occurrence of a Big Scoob sighting. I have sought to establish that such behavior would be overlooked if he were merely a better player, and that others would make excuses for his behavior.

I think there is more than enough here to demonstrate that.

never defended his actions at all, nor made excuses for them. learn to read.

i simply compared it to scoobs. they are not comparable. plain and simple.

in fact, i never once defended anyones actions in this entire thread, nor gave opinion of anyones actions other than scoob. you continue to assume, infer and literally make things up 11

 

[HongeyKong]

No one would defend a top5 who behaves like big scoob. But feel free to believe the opposite just for the sake of believing SO. You will need something stronger to back up such theories. Writing down 100 walls of texts in 1 thread repeating the same thing over and over won't convince anyone, since there has never been someone like big scoob at the very top

"What has impressed me the most about this thread - and I say this totally unironically - is Myth’s ability to express the exact same thought, post after post, using different words every single time! "
-MaSmOrRa 2021

 

[-R-]

"What has impressed me the most about this thread - and I say this totally unironically - is Myth’s ability to express the exact same thought, post after post, using different words every single time! "
-MaSmOrRa 2021

Well, it's not as impressive when it's literally the only idea in his mind, tbf.

 

[IYIyTh]

Eh, actually when some aoe celebrities did/say something stupid they got called out in aoezone and received tons of hatred. Whether it was deserved or not is a different story.

You don't think aoe (and I use this term loosely) "celebrities," should be criticized when they act like a child, a racist, or use homophobic slurs?

Is there a certain ranking where this changes?

If you take issue with what Big Scoob says, you should take issue with the various and repeated occurrences of appalling behavior by certain "celebrities." Else this sentiment reeks of tribalism and favoritism at best, or more concerningly "the rules are for thee, not for me," as it applies to criticism.

You have no problem levying disdain at Big Scoob, but decry the reaction of others and make pained calls for moderation when a fellow teamate does something comparable (there is no need to debate whether two "I kill your families," equal a homopbic or racial slur, it's immaterial) -- while downplaying or excusing their behavior.

Why is that, and is that fair or just? If this viewpoint was consistent, why wouldn't you also take issue with the castigation of Big Scoob? Is there a certain level or number of occurrences, if not veracity of abhorrent behavior where your opinion changes on the matter?

Good to see the usual suspects riled by the suggestion that actions have consequences.

 

[Lokalo]

And if we claim Big Scoob just has anger management or maturity issues that absolves him of his various behavior(s)? I think not. It's an obvious double standard.

Well seems you either can't or don't want to see the difference. And I'm not talking about Capoch, I wasn't around when that happened and every such case is quite different, that might be more serious, but again as you were criticised by many already, if you want proper discussion you have to take proper specific cases, not just vaguely mention some stuff. As for example hera, well no one saying it's good or mature, although him malding and being frustrated on someone who is walling every game is quite understandable, because many of us have been frustrated by that too. And if you don't see difference being frustrated on actual things to some degree, like "fk those lamers" "fk those wallers", "those monk conversions..." and just randomly wishing you death out of blue, well is hard to discuss much then.

For me personally such stuff is far from the same level, firstly Jordan wouldnt even know he said anything about walling, nor I doubt he is mad or anything. But it's still different when opponent can play his own game and isnt bothered, while other keeps spamming life threats into opponents screen. It just depends a lot on how it is done. For example someone being frustrating and typing that shriwamsha/gurjaras are just boosted I can fully understand it, because it is indeed super frustrating to play against it. And you can call it excuses as much you like, but if people can relate a lot, there always will be different reactions than where someone out of nowhere wishing death to which most of us never do nor can relate. But basically most people get frustrated, some much more often, few like Viper rarely gets/shows it, but until some degree I don't see it as a big issue. But again, unlike you, I see whining about civ match up, walling, laming and other stuff related to game being whole different story than just out of nowhere wishing death and stuff.

Of course there sometimes is double standard threatments, everywhere in life is, but it's to some degree. I'm pretty sure if any top player would start wishing death and stuff to other top player that would be a huge scandal.

By the way, as I'm writing this, scoob was just stream sniping mbl, so yeah, comparing this cheater with hera is bit too much.

 

[IYIyTh]

Well seems you either can't or don't want to see the difference. And I'm not talking about Capoch, I wasn't around when that happened and every such case is quite different, that might be more serious, but again as you were criticised by many already, if you want proper discussion you have to take proper specific cases, not just vaguely mention some stuff.

I don't need to mention cases, there are plenty of well documented cases as has been confirmed by others -- even within this thread (just a handful). The voracious defense of players not named only strengthens the argument that one need only to attain a certain level of skill and plenty will rush to their defense, regardless of what they've said/done. They'll claim it's just anger management issues, or that they've changed.

When a certain tier of player does something similarly heinous, to the extent they get banned from streaming or throw a racial slur or wish someone to die like several pro players have, it is excused, buried, and they get their 30-60 second tournament bit all the same.

There is hypocrisy in the culture of the aoe2 community, especially the pro players -- in how they have advocated for stronger moderation presenting this criticism. This is when they are unsuccessful of deleting VOD's of their petulant behavior or otherwise attempting to explain away their outburst(s) first. Yet -- all the more some will claim the behavior is fine, okay, normal, et al.

As you mention, there is inequity in life -- I'm just just highlighting it.

That's why you have folks qualifying the severity and frequency of racial slurs/death wishing that are requisite for a thread detailing criticism.

Deplorable behavior is deplorable, regardless of severity or frequency -- yet -- different strokes for different folks.

 

[oozkan]

I see some strong statement:
"If a top5 player behave like scoob no one would defend it."
I am sure we will see a lot of user like
"let's not forget what he had done for AOE2 community in past years"
So let's not be that sure about subject.

 

[vince]

well one things for sure, myth knows how to live up to his name

 

[IYIyTh]

well one things for sure, myth knows how to live up to his name

I see we're back to "this type of behavior is never excused for pro players because it never happens. If it does happen, it's not that bad. If it is that bad, they didn't mean it. If they didn't mean it, they've changed. If they haven't changed, they probably deserve it," argument.