August PUP

[MAE_ME]

It's not that it's a buff. It's more like that cost increase will hurt civs with weaker eco bonus more than civs with good eco like mayans, chinese, ...

The dude is obsessed.

 

[Instinctz]

There are tons of people who said the samething on all aoe groups, reddit, aoezone, forums, LOL.

Really? Where are they all? And where are all these people who agree sicilians and others weren't nerfed hard enough as well? Show me one person across all forums who agrees on every point? The only person who comes close is sou and he's not banned over there so no need for him to have a new account.

 

[MAE_ME]

Really? Where are they all? And where are all these people who agree sicilians and others weren't nerfed hard enough as well? Show me one person across all forums who agrees on every point? The only person who comes close is sou and he's not banned over there so no need for him to have a new account.

Ok, let me make reddit and forum account then I will post there 11

 

[itzfitz]

Ethiopians get +100g, +100f each age, xbow upgrade get +50g/+50f, so it is like nothing to Ethiopians. Chinese already have 15% discount in castle age, Mayans already have great eco with archers discount, so what does all this mean? This mean those top 3 archers civs are more than fine and the generic civs will be worse. See how this make these 3 civs even better?

I can't tell if you're overthinking this or what, but you are definitely wrong to say that these civs actually got better. Even if we go by your logic, they get marginally better vs some weaker archer civs while definitely getting worse vs cav civs. In no way can you consider Ethiopians / Chinese / Mayans being improved after this change.

 

[Instinctz]

It's more like that cost increase will hurt civs with weaker eco bonus more than civs with good eco like mayans, chinese, ..

But that wasn't his claim, and it's besides the point. I do agree that mayans, Chinese and britons need nerfs elsewhere but this patch seems more targeted at cav civs and new civs

 

[Instinctz]

The dude is obsessed

Nah. I just dont like ban evasion. You were banned for a reason. Clearly you still haven't learned.

 

[MAE_ME]

I can't tell if you're overthinking this or what, but you are definitely wrong to say that these civs actually got better. Even if we go by your logic, they get marginally better vs some weaker archer civs while definitely getting worse vs cav civs. In no way can you consider Ethiopians / Chinese / Mayans being improved after this change.

Not saying exactly being improved. But this change won't do anything to them comparing to the generic civs which will make the gap even bigger. What I wanted to say you can't make a general nerf without nerfing some strong civs in specific points.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Where PUP video @Hera_ @TheViper

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

So if I have to invest 175 wood and 140 gold in making my vills 15% faster (even when investing those resources in early castle age could mean I die because I'm not investing in army) - it's broken because they're now Ferraris at 15% but Berber vills which are 10% faster for free are not even Alfa Romeo?

Ferraris have good aero

 

[Saeda]

So what really frustrates me about this patch is that the Devs seem to understand exactly how big of a bonus 50% Bonus Damage is, but they nerf a civ that is, throughout all ELOs, significantly behind the Gurjaras and usually around 50% winrate, significantly more than the Gurjaras themselves.


I understand how frustrating Sicilian Cav can be, but that is part of their identity and with 33% reduction, they’ll likely drop very close to the bottom of the list. Meanwhile, the nerfs to Gurjaras are unlikely to have any impact whatsoever to their overwhelming dominance. Heck, we thought Sicilians would be a counter to Gurjaras when it first came out, and look where we are now. Sicilians are most definitely no problem civ, and I honestly don’t think they need that nerf. If anything, as some have said, maybe nerf their Castle speed?


And the Argument that Balancing is done around the Pro level doesn’t even work, the difference between these two civs in winrate is largest at the Pro level, in fact Sicilians seem to be weakest at a Pro level, so if anything, Sicilians seem perfectly balanced there, while Gurjaras are practically a Cheat Code. They have a counter to everything, and they themselves practically can’t be countered.


But I don’t just want to critisize, I want to be constructive, so here’s my take (Not that anyone will actually care, but I don't want to come off as ONLY a whiner):


The Eco bonus with the sheep isn’t the problem, it’s that it has no downsides. Most major, especially snowball Eco bonuses have a significant downside, while Gurjaras are, when played well, perfectly clean. So leave the bonus as it was, but place the Berries around the TC like Stragglers. Now the Gurjara player has to decide: Idling my TC a bit with inefficient early food income or eating one or two sheep first and sacrificing some later game snowball? The Berries under the TC is what is the big issue here, not the Gather rate.


Next, the other two Nerfs have to be seen as a whole, not as individuals. If the enemy goes Cav, you go Camels, and you win. They go Archers, you go Shrivamshas and you win. They go Infantry and, firstly, they’ll never catch you, and secondly, you do Chakrams eventually and win. It’s the symbiosis of these individual S-Tier counters that really makes Gurjaras OP. No unit truly works against them.


My first change would be to Shrivamsha Training time. I've seen games being won against Archer players just by spamming Shrivamshas. So increase their training time, probably quite substantially, so that you have smaller numbers of them and they will mainly be used for their purpose as advertised: Raiding units which can’t easily be shot down by Archers. At the moment, an Archer player has no counter against them, and even if they went into Cav, which still can’t catch them when they’re running, the Gurjara player will simply switch to Camels.


Which brings us to that now 40% bonus, which I’d argue is still too high. The point of counter units isn’t so much to win the fight outright unless they’re fully specialized, their point is to trade cost effective. Gurjara camel’s don’t just trade well against any Cavalry at all, they dominate the fight. An Archery Civ trying to counter Shrivamshas with Cav might lose against these Camels 3:1 with equal res. The most common suggestion I saw for this bonus was 33%, which again, the devs know since they give that to Sicilians. But I would go further and make that Bonus incremental by Age. 20% in Feudal, 30% in Castle, 40% in Imperial Age maybe. And even then, I’d have to do calculations again, but I think Imperial Age Heavy Camels would still win 1v1 against any Cav Unit, and previous ages would still trade better against them than I think any other Civ.


I believe these are changes that would make Gurjaras a bit less dominant, but still very viable for whatever role you are having them play. A slightly troublesome start to balance the Eco, similar to Chinese or Mayans, a slower to mass Raider in the Shrivamshas and Camels that get better every age, but don’t just mean Cavalry is pointless at any point in the game. I do not believe the changes we see here will have a notable impact on their overwhelming winrate.

 

[MAE_ME]

I understand how frustrating Sicilian Cav can be, but that is part of their identity and with 33% reduction, they’ll likely drop very close to the bottom of the list. Meanwhile, the nerfs to Gurjaras are unlikely to have any impact whatsoever to their overwhelming dominance. Heck, we thought Sicilians would be a counter to Gurjaras when it first came out, and look where we are now. Sicilians are most definitely no problem civ, and I honestly don’t think they need that nerf. If anything, as some have said, maybe nerf their Castle speed?

OMEGALUL. Sicilians are one of the most broken civs in the game and you think they were fine?! OMG. The 50% less bonus damage is the most broken bonus in the game, actually this nerf is not even enough, Sicilians need more nerfs. The civ from the beginning have wrong and bad design. It will be better to remove the civ from the game then redesign it then bring it back again. Their 1st crusade, Hauberk, 300 stone in the start and the 100% build faster all of these things are wrong and need to be deleted not to be nerfed.


Add to this, Burgundians, Cumans, Hindus, Gurjaras, Britons, Poles, Bohemia, Mayans, Aztecs, Eagles food cost, Franks, Huns, Chinese and Lithuans and even Byzantines. All these civs need more nerfs.

 

[Progeusz]

Where PUP video @Hera_ @TheViper

I've been refreshing YouTube all day yesterday. 10 times an hour, 5 times a minute, 2 times a second. I thought my IP got banned so I also set up a refreshing script on mom's laptop and dad's pager. I told kids in neighborhood to give me a shout if they see their vids. I've observed birds' patterns looking for clues but it started raining. It's been three years already, i have grown silver beard and am still waiting for rescue.

 

[LmScar12]

The Eco bonus with the sheep isn’t the problem, it’s that it has no downsides. Most major, especially snowball Eco bonuses have a significant downside, while Gurjaras are, when played well, perfectly clean. So leave the bonus as it was, but place the Berries around the TC like Stragglers. Now the Gurjara player has to decide: Idling my TC a bit with inefficient early food income or eating one or two sheep first and sacrificing some later game snowball? The Berries under the TC is what is the big issue here, not the Gather rate.

I agree, but you can go even further. Take away the extra berries altogether. I did a test with no extra berries and was able to do a 20 pop build (loom right before clicking up) on Arabia with only 5 seconds of idle TC, mostly from not force dropping the last boar when I wanted to go up. I didn't even make any farm w/o horse collar, and I was able to make 2 scouts right away, and another soon after. Actual high level players can no doubt do a perfect build.

 

[ItsYoshi]

 

[Lokalo]

But that wasn't his claim, and it's besides the point. I do agree that mayans, Chinese and britons need nerfs elsewhere but this patch seems more targeted at cav civs and new civs

Well I'm not sure if that's exactly what he meant, but that still makes sense, that ethiopians will afford xbow/bodkin arrow much easier than generic civ. So it doesn't make it better compared with before, but it makes their 100food/100gold bonus sometimes more important probably.

@Saeda I agree with most. I feel like due they don't even get pikemen, they kind of want to keep their camels bit OP. However I maybe missed or didn't see in pro play, but in my own games ~1750 elo I encountered few bit different plays with gurjaras which seemed quite difficult to deal with. So basically my gurjaras opponent went archers-> castle age into stables and siege. So basically dude gets with 10-12 archer to castle age, upgrades into xbow and adding some shrivamsha/camel depending on situation and some armored elephants or how they are called. with some defence, vills barely kill them, but you can't really switch into pikemen, due opponent has 12 xbow. mangonels doesnt do much against shrivamsha either, skirms is useless against shrivamsha and knights is also quite difficult, especially if you are a civ without bloodlines and their armored elephant eat tc, I honestly surprised Hoang not doing his "hoang" rush with gurjaras yet, maybe im just a noobie, but it felt super difficult to defend unless you are able to somehow sit behind walls, but very early castle age 10+ xbow with some shrivamsah+camels and armored elephants felt super strong, mainly due villagers doesnt work against them as good as against rams.

I kind of agree with shrivamshas training too fast, however maybe increasing their cost(can be on food) maybe would make it better, because as you said, their units are just great, so they maybe should just cost more, to be less effective. Also I think many still do not even use their UT yet, which is also amazing and very cheap. So would increase shrivamsha riders cost a bit, like 10 food and maybe a bit of chakram throwers, so those transitions are not as easy and with UT it wouldnt feel much anyway.

Sicilians. Well as mentioned before, I agree they need some buff to compensate, however this nerf was needed. 50% anti counter dmg is just bad for the game, is just a bad design. And having them to be amazing against arbalests I think is better, than having them great overall even against counter units. Seems like they just need to switch some stuff, as being able to kill counter units and being able to put your castle anywhere you want is just bad design, not neccessary OP, but such stuff shouldn't be in the game/be nerfed as they did with anti counter dmg. Maybe they could give something like 5% knight line attack speed bonus to compensate and make their cavalier good against other cavalier, but keep more room for halbs with this 33% nerf.

 

[MAE_ME]

Well I'm not sure if that's exactly what he meant, but that still makes sense, that ethiopians will afford xbow/bodkin arrow much easier than generic civ. So it doesn't make it better compared with before, but it makes their 100food/100gold bonus sometimes more important probably.

@Saeda I agree with most. I feel like due they don't even get pikemen, they kind of want to keep their camels bit OP. However I maybe missed or didn't see in pro play, but in my own games ~1750 elo I encountered few bit different plays with gurjaras which seemed quite difficult to deal with. So basically my gurjaras opponent went archers-> castle age into stables and siege. So basically dude gets with 10-12 archer to castle age, upgrades into xbow and adding some shrivamsha/camel depending on situation and some armored elephants or how they are called. with some defence, vills barely kill them, but you can't really switch into pikemen, due opponent has 12 xbow. mangonels doesnt do much against shrivamsha either, skirms is useless against shrivamsha and knights is also quite difficult, especially if you are a civ without bloodlines and their armored elephant eat tc, I honestly surprised Hoang not doing his "hoang" rush with gurjaras yet, maybe im just a noobie, but it felt super difficult to defend unless you are able to somehow sit behind walls, but very early castle age 10+ xbow with some shrivamsah+camels and armored elephants felt super strong, mainly due villagers doesnt work against them as good as against rams.

I kind of agree with shrivamshas training too fast, however maybe increasing their cost(can be on food) maybe would make it better, because as you said, their units are just great, so they maybe should just cost more, to be less effective. Also I think many still do not even use their UT yet, which is also amazing and very cheap. So would increase shrivamsha riders cost a bit, like 10 food and maybe a bit of chakram throwers, so those transitions are not as easy and with UT it wouldnt feel much anyway.

I was actually surprised that they didn't nerf Shirvmasha cost or speed, it is really weird to keep unit have 1.6 basic speed (1.76 with bloodlines) as it is, it is the fastest unit in the game and so cheap and their basic attack not bad at all. They only nerf the dodge time which is not enough at all.

On the other hand was a bigger shock that they didn't nerf siege elephants but actaully they buffed them LOL.

 

[vince]

Where PUP video @Hera_ @TheViper

i think they usually wait until the update is official, as opposed to a preview/beta

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

i think they usually wait until the update is official, as opposed to a preview/beta

Any idea when the patch will be released?

 

[vince]

Any idea when the patch will be released?

sometime this month

 

[HyunaOP]

Overall changes look fine. Probably their better one yet.

Only questionable one is Bengalis. Maybe on closed maps it can be good. But on open maps maybe not.

The monk armour seems random. Would have love to seen more focus towards Ratha taking slightly less elite skirmisher damage; Elephant Archer getting a 5 or 10 percent accuracy boost and/or giving them more stable options in the mid game.

 

[Lord_patito]

After thinking about it a little bit, there's 2 things I don't understand about this patch:

A) what are dravidians supposed to play ? I seriously don't understand what they should be playing. Elephant archers? Infantry + skirms? idk. I just keep feeling they don't have a good unit to go for

B) Sicilians. As Ornlu said in his video, the 50% bonus didn't seemed broken. Just knight line was (or at least a little bit too good). I think the issue was not the 50% reduced bonus damage, but their conversion resistance + their 2 extra PA. If Any, I think now Sicilians will need a buff in another area. Maybe a good time to buff searjents / donjons ?

 

[IYIyTh]

After thinking about it a little bit, there's 2 things I don't understand about this patch:

A) what are dravidians supposed to play ? I seriously don't understand what they should be playing. Elephant archers? Infantry + skirms? idk. I just keep feeling they don't have a good unit to go for

Drush/ 5 m@a into skirms into elephant archers. The 200w at feudal and castle up are nothing to sniff at and isn't fully figured out yet (can aid in forwards, trush, etc.) Can help facilitate easy comp transition, additional army, or booming. I think if they were given redemption they would be quite good, especially on closed maps. They are already pretty decent on water maps.

 

[Paint]

Bengali could use HC so they actually have something to stop Kamayuk.

 

[IvIaximus]

No idea if there is any connection with planned patch but I had units walking through/getting stuck in buildings yesterday. Saw it today in stream as well... Perhaps we are geting this bug back again.

 

[Please_dont_choose_goths!]

Map Voting is now an in-game feature
Melee pathing feels a lot smoother again

General Balance:
- Crossbowman upgrade cost increased 125F 75g -> 175F 125G
- Arbalester upgrade cost increased 300F 300G -> 450F 400G
- Armored Elephants/Siege Elephants are now affected by Siege Engineers
- Elephant Archer cavalry archer armor changed from -7 to -4 (take less bonus damage from e.g. skirmishers)

Civilisation Balance:
Bengalis:
- Monks now have +3/+3 armor
Burgundians:
- Economy upgrade food discount changed from -50% -> -40%
- (Elite) Coustillier charge attack reduced by 5 from +25 -> +20, +30 -> +25
- (Elite) Coustillier charge time reduced from 40s -> 33s
Dravidians:
- Now have access to Bombard Cannons
Gurjaras:
- Mounted units bonus damage decreased from 50% -> 40%
- Elite Shrivamsha upgrade changed from 800F 600G -> 850F 500G
- (Elite) Shrivamsha rider recharge rate increased from 15s -> 20s
Hindustanis:
- (Elite) Ghulam HP reduced by 10 from 65 -> 55, 75 -> 65
- lose access to Halberdier
Sicilians:
- Bonus damage reduction decreased from -50% -> -33%

Thanks for ruining archers, gurjaras, hindustanis, Sicilians and burgundians