Attack Move - Ban or Bang?

[LePac]

Hi folks,

I just stumbled across mbeeeees post about banning the attack move from tournaments ( https://twitter.com/MbLAoC/status/1505363977207009280?s=19)
I might be a 16x pleb that loves watching the lord, but holy moly, after 22 years of age I learned that there is an attack move.
So far I was using target fire (i know - overkill) and usually patrol when its a close fight or melee / knights involved.

Is it now worth it to learn how to execute the attack move properly and if so, will this probably translate in an Elo buff?
Moreover, do you also use the attack Move for melee and knights or rather only archers?
Damn, I am over 30, is the execution hard to learn and what hotkey do you use?

I feel left out!
Cheers

 

[SouFire]

Attack move is not a vanilla feature, it was introduced since HD, such behavior was found to be a bug back at voobly day when pike started abusing with galleys and xbows, abusing attack move results into a speed buff and fire rate increased compared to normal behavior which breaks the game design on some units.

It should be removed cause honestly if they try to fix it they might break more things and add more bugs, everyone is abusing it on higher levels and winning fights that they shouldn't or increasing the damage of their rushes.

 

[kalpit00]

I think whats worse is that it is inconsistent. Attack Move works sometimes and it does wonders when chasing ranged units or microing your xbows away from knights (which is pretty broken ngl Knights in Voobly were so much stronger due to this reason). However, the times when attack move doesn't work, you basically dont fire any arrows, your units stand still and take damage. So this inconsistency makes it really hard to judge xbow/skirm fights

 

[gwfe]

Can someone explain what exactly mbl is compaining about? Attack move micro with ranged units as in this Survivalist video?

Quick Tip #1: Attack Move Archer Micro [Age of Empires 2] [ES SUBS]

NOTE: Attack move has been changed, so it doesn't work exactly like this anymore.Microing ranged units like this should be done most of the time when kiting ...

www.youtube.com

If so I don't mind it, there's spots where that is the right move and there is still spots where target fire is better

Moreover, do you also use the attack Move for melee and knights or rather only archers?

pretty sure patrol is preferable for melee units

 

[T-West]

Can someone explain what exactly mbl is compaining about? Attack move micro with ranged units as in this Survivalist video?

Quick Tip #1: Attack Move Archer Micro [Age of Empires 2] [ES SUBS]

NOTE: Attack move has been changed, so it doesn't work exactly like this anymore.Microing ranged units like this should be done most of the time when kiting ...

www.youtube.com

If so I don't mind it, there's spots where that is the right move and there is still spots where target fire is better



pretty sure patrol is preferable for melee units

After testing this a bit, it seems that units get a distinct speed boost when moving after attack moving. It feels somewhat like they get the movement boost for changing their formation, but get it while moving instead of reforming.

 

[miguelzin]

Archers move fast after shooting, it should have been removed months ago

 

[Tiekel]

Was there a similar reason stop micro was made void? Else I do not understand why such a feature was removed. Move and right click works faster than patrol right? It seems reasonable for there to be a move that scatters fire and isn't too slow to be useless

 

[AoeWololo]

I've started using it recently after losing many micro battles against it. Wasn't aware of the speed bonus.

Imo it's also kinda lame that you don't need to target anymore, that is the fun and skill part of micro.

 

[Tarsiz]

Attack move is not a vanilla feature, it was introduced since HD, such behavior was found to be a bug back at voobly day when pike started abusing with galleys and xbows, abusing attack move results into a speed buff and fire rate increased compared to normal behavior which breaks the game design on some units.

It should be removed cause honestly if they try to fix it they might break more things and add more bugs, everyone is abusing it on higher levels and winning fights that they shouldn't or increasing the damage of their rushes.

That is slightly inaccurate. What Pike was doing was spamming the Patrol hotkey on Voobly (hence the name of "Pike Patrol") which mostly helped in galley fights. This was something that existed on Userpatch 1.4 and was removed once we moved to UP 1.5 around 2017/2018.

Whether HD introduced additional bugs with Attack Move however is entirely possible.

 

[Hearttt]

It's a super broken bug/feature that needs to be removed. The only reason it has gone somewhat unnoticed is because it's only really known at the highest level and most players don't abuse it (for whatever reason, lazyness of setting up a hotkey in my case). Unlike pike patrol that was mostly abusable for chasing ranged vs ranged units, this attack move bug also works at hit and running against melee units, making it practically impossible to trade efficiently with kts against xbows unless you have an absurd number advantage.

Two quick examples from a single game last weekend:

Margougou abusing it vs lierey

Twitch

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Lierey abusing it vs margougou

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

In a ranged units war you use it to shoot and catch up, basically making the player with less numbers unable to micro his way out as you would usually be able to - it is the exact same or perhaps even better than old pike patrol. The speed bonus is VERY noticeable during a game, but maybe not as much when seen from a spectator POV.

 

[IYIyTh]

Changes the balance on CS games as well as 1v1 squad. plsnerf

 

[Influenza]

Surprised it has taken so long for pro players to start complaining about it. aoe2 has been in borderline disaster state due to this since people started abusing it within ~6 months of DE's release.

 

[flightlessbird]

It should be removed (or changed) from the game, imo it is big part of reason knights civ did terrible in KOTD4, nowdays everyone (including myself) abuses it heavily since it gives such big advantage for little effort.

For usage it is like old pike patrol - use with ranged units when chasing or hit and running to gain extra speed to either chase down a smaller army of x-bow (or other slow army/villagers) or avoid getting attacked by knights (or other fast melee units). Don't think melee units get any benefit from it, just patrol with them.

 

[IvIaximus]

In a ranged units war you use it to shoot and catch up, basically making the player with less numbers unable to micro his way out as you would usually be able to - it is the exact same or perhaps even better than old pike patrol. The speed bonus is VERY noticeable during a game, but maybe not as much when seen from a spectator POV.

I did not really know how it works or that people use it but I remember few games not so long ago when I had feeling as if opponent had faster bows than me while also having ballistics in feudal. At least I know I am not hallucinating.

 

[Memeluke]

Meanwhile deleting mangonels to do magic damage is totally ok

 

[Potkeny]

Meanwhile deleting mangonels to do magic damage is totally ok

At least there is some risk with that, if you miss, you lost your mango for nothing. Attack move with xbow doesn't magically kill your units if you "fail".

 

[King_Boo]

It's a super broken bug/feature that needs to be removed. The only reason it has gone somewhat unnoticed is because it's only really known at the highest level and most players don't abuse it (for whatever reason, lazyness of setting up a hotkey in my case). Unlike pike patrol that was mostly abusable for chasing ranged vs ranged units, this attack move bug also works at hit and running against melee units, making it practically impossible to trade efficiently with kts against xbows unless you have an absurd number advantage.

Two quick examples from a single game last weekend:

Margougou abusing it vs lierey

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

Lierey abusing it vs margougou

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

In a ranged units war you use it to shoot and catch up, basically making the player with less numbers unable to micro his way out as you would usually be able to - it is the exact same or perhaps even better than old pike patrol. The speed bonus is VERY noticeable during a game, but maybe not as much when seen from a spectator POV.

In these clips, Margou chases down Liereyy be as use of the change of angle - hence he is having to travel a shorter distance
Liereyy stops being able to chase down Margou once Margou stops returning fire.
These 2 clips don’t actually demonstrate the effectiveness of attack move in almost removing the need to stop, as another factor is more significant in each case.

The use of attack move in not having to stop to fire is more noticeable in galleys than archers I find as well.
It’s as much a feature as dodging ballistics - all about good timing and attention

 

[Memeluke]

At least there is some risk with that, if you miss, you lost your mango for nothing. Attack move with xbow doesn't magically kill your units if you "fail".

Failing to do the glitch correctly is on you, not on the glitch. The glitch itself has no risk, you delete your mangonel when you aimed correctly and gain free magic damage for no reason. It has a cost (the mangonel) but there's nothing risky or random about it, you decide to do it when you fully believe it would be more beneficial than keeping the mangonel alive.

 

[IvIaximus]

In these clips, Margou chases down Liereyy be as use of the change of angle - hence he is having to travel a shorter distance
Liereyy stops being able to chase down Margou once Margou stops returning fire.
These 2 clips don’t actually demonstrate the effectiveness of attack move in almost removing the need to stop, as another factor is more significant in each case.

The use of attack move in not having to stop to fire is more noticeable in galleys than archers I find as well.
It’s as much a feature as dodging ballistics - all about good timing and attention

Not entirely sure how all this works but you can clearly see units "stuttering", indicating that there player has given repeated command. Simply ordering your units to move (even multiple times) does not makes units stutter.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

@IYIyTh Is this distinct from the bug you identified where target right click is actually an attack move to that unit rather than a unit attack command?

 

[_Donatello_]

I think its stupidly broken, last week I had like 5 scouts vs 6 archers early feudal and lost all without taking down 1 archer (I patrol them in on aggressive). I catch him open out on the field and were thinking I took a good fight but first archer just move back when they shoot and move so quick so scouts Just stay watching, rage quitted right after.

Ive seen it more and more on lower lvl last 2-3 weeks. Did viper or someone make a guide on it?

Edit: I see now Survivalist made video

 

[IYIyTh]

@IYIyTh Is this distinct from the bug you identified where target right click is actually an attack move to that unit rather than a unit attack command?

Completely separate.

Right click is broken as it pertains to how the game worked before DE. A right click in current DE is an attack move command -- if you have units on aggressive/defensive etc. They will peel off and attack other units unless on stand ground. Extremely annoying when dealing with monks when your units decide "Hey you know what? Instead of doing what you asked us to do and killing the monk, let's just let our bud get converted and attack this building/unit that is closer than what you right clicked instead."

Towers/Tc's/Fortifications also still prioritize buildings over units -- extremely annoying when them hitting once/twice can mean the difference between being up a vil/two in a game.

Normal behavior is that regardless of units stance a right click will mean the unit will attack until that unit is killed or leaves field of vision (wouldn't even say LOS, so long as you can see it the right click command persists), then reverts to existing attack stance.

 

[King_Boo]

Not entirely sure how all this works but you can clearly see units "stuttering", indicating that there player has given repeated command. Simply ordering your units to move (even multiple times) does not makes units stutter.

When you can make them ‘stutter’ but they still fire - that’s perfect timing and you basically don’t stop moving.
But as heartt said - most people don’t know this exists, let alone have worked out how to execute it.
It’s using mechanics in the game to the extreme - much like dodging ballistics.
The trade off for excellent micro is having to pay so much attention to your units and be constantly commanding them what to do.
Imo it rewards high skill - much like dodging ballistics.
Whether this skill should be in the game is probably down to opinion

 

[DracKeN]

I heavily disagree about this requiring high skill. It's pretty similar as stop micro, to make it perfect you just need to get correct rhythm with your range units based on their RoF. You can test this yourself in scenario editor, xbows vs kts, stop micro vs focus micro vs attack move. And then argue it's not broken.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Now that it's a hot topic, take care of the mangonel bullshit as well as @Memeluke pointed it out.