Arabia: Love it or leave it?

[RainbowDemon]

First of all, I'd like to clarify I have always played almost exclusively Arabia. I'm the kind of guy who bans Arena even though I enjoy it just so I can play more Arabia. I have defended Arabia as the bread and butter of this game, the crown jewel, the maximum expression of Age Of Empires 2. Until today, that is.
What started as a fair request from the community to make Arabia more open in the early days of DE devolved into an unjustifiable obsession. A handful of players that could not cause damage to their opponents despite several script changes to make the map more open and heavy wall nerfs still weren't satisfied.
Recently, the map was already open enough. Walling was hard if you didn't do it very early (with a big opportunity cost). Aggro and micro oriented players were already dominating the scene, at the expense of more strategic oriented players. Quickwalling is already a more important skill than walling your map correctly, if you are a good quickwaller you can get away with your poor strategic decisions. Which is why I can't fathom why they needed to do this abomination that came with the last update.
RTS means real time STRATEGY. If I wanted to play Fortnite or other ******ed game for 11 year olds that rewards reflexes and APM over intelligence I would be doing so.
I never thought I'd ever say this, but I might do a full 180 and start banning Arabia for Arena after all. Who are the clowns now?

 

[Beanslinger]

In the new arabia, the winner is decided by who can quickwall the fastest. Talk about a snoozefest. Already Arabia was 90% cavalry civs now it will be 100% cavalry.

 

[Faultier321]

Havent play too many games on new arabia map so far, but last game i had back Berrys, stone, secondary gold and one woodline on each side, i could wall towards my TC pretty easy. But maybe that was just luck. I like Arabia beeing more open, but i favour map generations that make going for drush FC viable in mayb 1 out of 3-5 games. Right now it seems like you are always completely open at the Front?

 

[Umdeuter]

It's not THAT open, I think, you have always back wood and closed sides. I think, the main problem is the lack of variance.

I wrote on Reddit why I think it should be a new map at this point.

Ahead of my point I just want to make clear that I am personally pretty happy with the Arabia changes. It makes Scout rush better (something which I personally love), it makes sniping vils at woodlines harder (something which I personally hate) and I don't even think it's that open and difficult to wall as others claim.

I just don't think it should be called Arabia (and I am not sure if it should replace Arabia), because there are two very important and significant differences to Arabia: It's always structured in the exact same way. And it's also a structure which is rather atypical for Arabia.

A) It's always the same

Before you scouted the map, you know that you have a back woodline. You know that you have a woodline to either side of that. You know that you are open on the front. You know that the open front is sprinkled with hills. You know that you have your main ressources in rather comfortable spots but your third gold far away somewhere.

In Arabia, the scouting of the map is extremely important because you have none of these informations. You might have a back wood or not. You might have ressources exposed or not. You might have an open front or not.

B) The structure is not Arabia-like

I really enjoy about AoE how maps are structured and therefore play out differently. Arena plays much different than Hideout, not so much because of the different walls but rather because in one map the fight takes place on open ground, the other one in choke-pointy sidespots. One has always exact one attacking angle, the other one has potentially two or three attacking angles.

I think a great aspect of Arabia, which is widely overseen, is that the structure of Arabia is

• always a bit different, contrary to most maps (Ghostlake, Golden Pit, Hideout, Arena, BF, Four Lakes, all have always a very similar structure)

• very balanced, which means that all structural aspects can appear in different shapes: you can have dominant hills or not, you can have multiple attacking angles or just one, you can have small bases or big bases, you can have extra ressources at the side or in the middle, you can have lots of ressources or you need to expand early

Arabia does not have this one dominant characteristic of other, more niche maps. And that is its great strength which makes it an all time classic.

This is gone with the new "Arabia". This one has a very distinct and clear characteristic which resembles rather Gold Rush, just without the Gold in the middle. Or Ghost Lake, just without the lake (but hills).

It's not only that the front of the bases is open, but that leads also to no wood being in between the bases in general. So when you go forward, when you place Castles, that is mostly on open space. There are no choke points. There are no central woodlines that you can use strategically. There is usually not a neutral middle hill to fight for, but it's always the hills in front of the bases. The fights don't develop more towards the right side or the left side of the map, it's always just a straight line between the bases. You can't sneak behind the enemy base. You won't have a strong side of your base and a weak side. It's much more obvious to decide where to put TCs, where to wall, where to attack, where to put a defensive or offensive Castle.

It is really a more simple and plain map now. It should get a new name and be a new map.

Or, you put a couple of Arabia gens together and make it one map. For example: the new Gold-Rush-Arabia is generated 30% of the time, the balanced Arabia from before 30% of the time, an open KOTD-type Arabia 20% of the time and another more closed early-DE or Green Arabia also 20% of the time.

 

[RainbowDemon]

Havent play too many games on new arabia map so far, but last game i had back Berrys, stone, secondary gold and one woodline on each side, i could wall towards my TC pretty easy. But maybe that was just luck. I like Arabia beeing more open, but i favour map generations that make going for drush FC viable in mayb 1 out of 3-5 games. Right now it seems like you are always completely open at the Front?

I believe variance should play a role but overall this kind of map generation will result in extremely open games. Arabia is supposed to be open and aggressive, but not full balls to the wall. Whoever has the better feudal push wins.

 

[hoyohoyo9]

I believe variance should play a role but overall this kind of map generation will result in extremely open games. Arabia is supposed to be open and aggressive, but not full balls to the wall. Whoever has the better feudal push wins.

Yeah it's almost Socotra at this point. That said, I like the thinking behind the changes. Encourages a healthy amount of play in every age. Just needs some minor tweaks to improve variety and resource placement and maybe some thicker woodlines. Or keep the thin woodlines and add a fourth forest?

 

[IvIaximus]

Changes to arabia are one of the few good changes they have made recently. It reminds me more of old style arabia in AoC. Let it stay the way it is. I am tired of full wall every damn game as if I was playing arena.

 

[Chainsaw]

I think I understand where OP is coming from, but honestly, before the patch I hardly ever did any damage going scouts, so I felt like it was not a viable option. Last night I played and was able to snipe vills from opponents who were still trying to full wall.

I agree that the map is a bit repetitive with knowing where res is, but I prefer it in its current form. They could still add variance so that it doesn't always look the same, but I definitely think it should be more open than it was prepatch.

 

[RainbowDemon]

Changes to arabia are one of the few good changes they have made recently. It reminds me more of old style arabia in AoC. Let it stay the way it is. I am tired of full wall every damn game as if I was playing arena.

Like I said, the map was already quite open before this last balance and walling was heavily nerfed. This perception that "every game is arena" is due to the early days of DE when Green Arabia was prevalent and it hasn't been like that for quite a while.
Also, I encourage anyone mentioning aoc to take a look at some older games. Maps were not that open and resources were not that far away. There were not that many damn hills either. It's kind of a false memory that aoc maps were that freaking open because again, people compared those maps with the initial DE Arabia, making aoc look very open in comparison.
It should also be mentioned the game has evolved a lot since aoc, players have found more ways to break defenses. Passive play was already getting punished since the last change.
I don't want Arabia to be walls drush + FC either, but it was already open enough. I was doing/taking damage with nearly every rush and having a good win rate with 1 TC or delayed TCs. This new generation goes far beyond aggression, it's apeshit spam and micro, creativity gone down the drain.

PS; Also, I absolutely hate hills below gold/berries.

 

[King_Marv]

People will always complain about everything.

in higher Level Defensive playstyle wins almost every time. Don’t see a problem here

 

[RainbowDemon]

People will always complain about everything.

in higher Level Defensive playstyle wins almost every time. Don’t see a problem here

Take a look at my previous posts mentioning Arabia, then make a more informed opinion about what I say.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

All I know is that the Arabia I watched in HC2 was much more interesting than any Arabia I've seen in a DE competition.

 

[Rayne]

Arabia mi gusta.

 

[King_Marv]

Take a look at my previous posts mentioning Arabia, then make a more informed opinion about what I say.

what?

why do i have to make more informed opinion?? My opinion is based on my own games. It doesnt matter which map you play almost everyone is playing defensive in 2k+ level, because its so hard to do enough damage to make it viable.

You can ofc have your own opinion but for higher level its just not true since people know how and where to wall. Lowers player tend to wall all the map and then wonder that a 100 tile palisade wall gets destroyed somewhere.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

why do i have to make more informed opinion?? My opinion is based on my own games. It doesnt matter which map you play almost everyone is playing defensive in 2k+ level, because its so hard to do enough damage to make it viable.

What do you think causes this? There have been numerous nerfs to palisade walls and none of these seem to have done anything.

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

I don't really know why some people always want a more and more open arabia (apart for spectating reasons, but tournaments are usually on bespoke map packs).

For people who really like open, aggressive maps, you have Atacama, four lakes, African clearing, etc. always in the map pool. It would be nice to have a more green arabia, or perhaps alternate between this arabia and green arabia in the map pool? Or maybe make some of the arabia "clones" like valley a bit more green?

I think that would allow everyone to have something.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I don't really know why some people always want a more and more open arabia (apart for spectating reasons, but tournaments are usually on bespoke map packs).

For people who really like open, aggressive maps, you have Atacama, four lakes, African clearing, etc. always in the map pool. It would be nice to have a more green arabia, or perhaps alternate between this arabia and green arabia in the map pool? Or maybe make some of the arabia "clones" like valley a bit more green?

I think that would allow everyone to have something.

They want playing on Arabia to feel like what playing on older versions of Arabia felt like and from the consistency of the complaints I've seen I don't think it ever has really been this way in the DE era.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

I think berries shouldn't spawn on hills as it's very difficult to wall the vills or even farms around mills. That I would change. And 3 forests in the back seem weird as well.

 

[IvIaximus]

Like I said, the map was already quite open before this last balance and walling was heavily nerfed. This perception that "every game is arena" is due to the early days of DE when Green Arabia was prevalent and it hasn't been like that for quite a while.
Also, I encourage anyone mentioning aoc to take a look at some older games. Maps were not that open and resources were not that far away. There were not that many damn hills either. It's kind of a false memory that aoc maps were that freaking open because again, people compared those maps with the initial DE Arabia, making aoc look very open in comparison.
It should also be mentioned the game has evolved a lot since aoc, players have found more ways to break defenses. Passive play was already getting punished since the last change.
I don't want Arabia to be walls drush + FC either, but it was already open enough. I was doing/taking damage with nearly every rush and having a good win rate with 1 TC or delayed TCs. This new generation goes far beyond aggression, it's apeshit spam and micro, creativity gone down the drain.

PS; Also, I absolutely hate hills below gold/berries.

Arabia in AoC was definitely much more open than anything I seen in DE. Also, you have to take into account that in AoC, there were small lakes/ponds that made woods even thinner and much less defensible. There were cliffs and much more hills as well so even if it was not that open at times, there were ways to engage walled oponent and force him to make an army and not jsut stockpile resources to quick up. In DE, you basically wall and just quickly boom into imp. I can not stress how often I see pros nowadays going into imp and not having even basic eco upgrades like second wood upgrade, second farm upgrade or wheelbarrow. At first I thought it might be meta or something with civ balance, lately I got impression it is because closed maps. If you have maps like in AoC where you often need to pull or relocate vills and map allow for much more aggresive approach from your opponent, you have no chance to simply stockpile 1000f800g to imp, so u rather improve your eco by small steps while maintaing strong army. But hey, jus tmy impression.
EDIT: But I agree getting two/three woods in back becomes repetitive quite quickly. It seems they made arabia more open but still keep it safe.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Also, you have to take into account that in AoC, there were small lakes/ponds that made woods even thinner and much less defensible. There were cliffs and much more hills as well so even if it was not that open at times, there were ways to engage walled oponent and force him to make an army and not jsut stockpile resources to quick up

Interesting then that the latest changes specifically said they removed these things. They added so much character to the map, in addition to the gameplay effects you describe, which does make me think @Umdeuter is correct in describing it as a different map than actual Arabia.

EDIT: But I agree getting two/three woods in back becomes repetitive quite quickly. It seems they made arabia more open but still keep it safe

I get the sense when many people they want Arabia to be more open what they really mean is that they want it to be less safe. That is the impression of Arabia I have from the way everyone talks about it and how it was when it became such a beloved competitive map in the first place.

 

[Kongen_42]

The new arabia is like making sweet love to your long lost young lover. WTF I didnt think we would ever get a chance to go full scouts and feudal wars again. Now walls seems so useless.
It really does remind you of the good old hun wars on voobly t90 talks about. Best update ever

 

[Young Peron]

This version of Arabia is the best since DE came out. I finally have that old feeling of agression that rewards you. In the past, when no one fully walled, i felt that Arabia games where way more about map and army awareness. I've got the feeling that this comes back with the new update.

Yeah it's almost Socotra at this point. That said, I like the thinking behind the changes. Encourages a healthy amount of play in every age. Just needs some minor tweaks to improve variety and resource placement and maybe some thicker woodlines. Or keep the thin woodlines and add a fourth forest?

Almost like Socorta, sure man... Also keep in mind that Arabia always was an open map, way more than since DE. The way it is now, is still less open than it was in the voobly days, unless you only played Green Arabia.

 

[Rey_Fer]

they removed oasis and cliffs, this arabia is more closed map than old arabia, but it begins to be fun

 

[wAkKo]

The map is still wallable but now you have to commit more to feudal units, which is great imo. It kinda brings back to the old arabia style.

I was getting super bored of the new arabia meta, and I wasnt enjoying it at all. There were some map generations in which going scouts was completely useless. Instead, full wall, one range and quick up to castle age was the safest and repetitive way to play the map.

 

[IvIaximus]

Interesting then that the latest changes specifically said they removed these things. They added so much character to the map, in addition to the gameplay effects you describe, which does make me think @Umdeuter is correct in describing it as a different map than actual Arabia.

To be honest, I do not really remember cliffs and wood lakes before this patch but rarely played so I might be wrong there.

I get the sense when many people they want Arabia to be more open what they really mean is that they want it to be less safe. That is the impression of Arabia I have from the way everyone talks about it and how it was when it became such a beloved competitive map in the first place.

Well, yes. It was always map, where you played all four ages. In DE, you basically skipped feudal. In AoC you could not afford to make some m@a into one range and 18 min up because you would most likely die or suffer casualties due to pressure of feudal army.