AoE Steam Sale

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AoE2 is 80% off, so if you have been waiting for a chance to purchase the expansions for use with WK now is a good time to do so!

https://store.steampowered.com/app/221380/Age_of_Empires_II_HD/

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Also it is 82% off if you buy the AoE2 & AoE3 bundle!

https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/2185/Age_of_Empires_Legacy_Bundle/

AoE3 by itself is 75% off

https://store.steampowered.com/app/105450/Age_of_Empires_III_Complete_Collection/

AoM is 75% off

https://store.steampowered.com/app/266840/Age_of_Mythology_Extended_Edition/
 

Austriateutonic_tanks

Two handed swordman
Mar 30, 2013
2,178
536
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#77
Mamelukes have been OP and Shit at the same time forever?

like if it wasnt possible to counter them with halbs (i just gonna believe they do i actually dont know how many you need and how good your micro is) what unit is countering mamelukes then?
this is very true, in AOC it used to be a pain to counter mames with a cavalry civ like persians, franks, spain, huns etc. The only option were halb + BBC (since mames classified as ships, cannons get +40 attack bonus vs them) and even that wasn't really working. Its good that halbs perform way better against them now, but man mames (and their techs) are just shit expensive and slow created, on top of that sara has no strong economy bonus which would make their production easier. They should be like 10 or 15 gold cheaper
 
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Czech RepublicCZ_Mango

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#78
The only "pro" I see being vocal against WK is Influenza. And that's a guy who probably wants to go back to AOK balance anyway (I agree tho, make Franks great again!).
If any of old civs is great now then it is franks. They got so many buffs in WK they are really hard to beat.
 

Czech RepublicCZ_Mango

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#79
The biggest issue here is that some people are simply stuck in the old aoc world forever which they idealized as if it was the only perfect settings. The funny thing is it is as far from truth as it can be. Aoc was never well balanced and the era of huns only was the biggest disappointment in aoc history in terms of balance. It went so far that some people even refused to play against you if you picked anything else but huns.

I am really glad we finally moved on from this. In terms of tgs some people are just so used to abuse aoc inbalances like eg aztec monks, maya plumeds, spanish trade, patrolled post imp mamelukes or godlike aoc mangudais that they simply can't stand that they have been adjusted for the better. Yes there are some new units/civs which feel strong but the diference between best and worst civ in wk is so much smaller now than it was in aoc. The issues are being adressed and with each new patch it is more balanced.

What is the biggest difference that in both 1v1 and tgs you have so much more civs to choose from which are able to compete on top. And even the a bit weaker civs can have a good shot vs them if they are played the correct way.
 
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United StatesInfluenza

Two handed swordman
Jul 7, 2011
2,122
1,148
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#80
I regret argueing with you already, it's not like I ever did any example like this to begin with.
But for the sake of the argument, let's argue.
Mangudai, as you said before have one major bonus, that HCA don't have, the bonus dmg against siege.
Therefore they are the way better late game unit, especially when SO or siegerams are out.
Nevertheless it's harder to mass them, but why is that a problem?
It's not like HCA will win in a TG over Mangudai, they win in 1v1 games, they are easier to get massed in Castle age and early imp.
I don't see a problem here.
Mangudai are stronger in late game, so they are harder to get to, alright seems like a very good balance :wink:
I think you are trapped by the mindset of old AOC, as many others, who loved to play with Mangudai.
But in reality AOC Mangudai were unbalanced, while they are way better balanced in wk now.
And I know you will disagree with me here, please don't repeat all your arguments you made previously, I acknowledged them as Facts.
I simply disagree, that because HCA are easier to mass and got a cost reduction, they are now to strong compared with Mangudai.
There's nothing left to argue about, you challenged my POV, with more than half of your statements demonstrably false, and now that you got the facts mostly straightened out, you came to a different conclusion than me. I would just prefer if mangudai frame delay was reduced to like 2 or 3 so they could widen the margin between the heavily boosted hca
 

GermanyAthasos

Longswordman
Jul 8, 2017
558
803
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Hessen, Germany
#81
There's nothing left to argue about, you challenged my POV, with more than half of your statements demonstrably false, and now that you got the facts mostly straightened out, you came to a different conclusion than me. I would just prefer if mangudai frame delay was reduced to like 2 or 3 so they could widen the margin between the heavily boosted hca
Why are generic FU HCA better than mangudais now?
Keep in mind I challenged this argument :wink:
 
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United StatesInfluenza

Two handed swordman
Jul 7, 2011
2,122
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#82
Keep in mind I challenged this argument :wink:
truly I am incapable of understanding your fixation on this simple statement that has since been nuanced to such a great degree that I find it unbelievable that someone could still be wondering what I meant by it.

20 mangudai cost:
1300 gold
1100 wood

22 cav archers cost:
1320 gold
880 wood

I think having a few more cav archers than mangudai is a good example of an in game situation we might see between these two units. When I could get the patrols about equal (for some reason this is a much bigger problem in WK than in AoC) Saracen FU HCA would win vs Mongol FU mangudai with about 4-5 remaining. If the patrol went better for the HCA there would be like 8-10 HCA left, if patrol went poorly for HCA the mangu would win by some margin.

So no, I don't think generic HCA available to quite a few civs should outperform a UU in head-head combat.
 

MexicoSouFire

Well Known Pikeman
Mar 11, 2011
2,604
142
78
29
Mexico
#83
Oh man, mamelukes have always been countered by camels, so as persian you always had a chance, its high price justified his strength, saracens was never picked on any team game tournament, because getting their full power takes too much time and resources, it was perfectly balanced, you can get the best army composition if you manage to survive long enough, that is the definition of balance in rts games, while a cheap rams+halbs push can clean a saracens player before he even gets enough castles or upgrades.

Flu is right about mangudais, they are expensive and slow created in comparison to normal HCA, the delay was maybe too much, considering the additions of several strong anti arch/cavalry arch line, the current mangudai might not be worth the investment, in aoc that change would have been good, but this is no longer aoc balance, just look at this example, camel archer kills chokonu, chokonu used to kill mangudai in aoc, how do you dare to say that the balance is better, you just have more units and civ options, but the broken units have multiplied.

Berseker was created to counter trash and infantry, the unit was already the aoe winner by its design, despite vikings having the strongest economic advantage, they gave them chieftains to the unit as merely fan service, berseker is now the most broken unit, it kills trash, infantry, arch line and cavalry, it only gets countered by other UU and HC but as civ they can counter HC with arbs and siege rams, leaving a very small room to counter the whole civ, if you don't see the problem in a rts game concept, then you probably wont be able to understand other balance problems.
 

GermanyAthasos

Longswordman
Jul 8, 2017
558
803
108
Hessen, Germany
#84
truly I am incapable of understanding your fixation on this simple statement that has since been nuanced to such a great degree that I find it unbelievable that someone could still be wondering what I meant by it.

20 mangudai cost:
1300 gold
1100 wood

22 cav archers cost:
1320 gold
880 wood

I think having a few more cav archers than mangudai is a good example of an in game situation we might see between these two units. When I could get the patrols about equal (for some reason this is a much bigger problem in WK than in AoC) Saracen FU HCA would win vs Mongol FU mangudai with about 4-5 remaining. If the patrol went better for the HCA there would be like 8-10 HCA left, if patrol went poorly for HCA the mangu would win by some margin.

So no, I don't think generic HCA available to quite a few civs should outperform a UU in head-head combat.
Maybe someday you will realize that when actually playing the game of aoc, unit matchups aren't just patrolling 40 unit groups against each other and thus declaring one a victor in any and all situations
DUDE WTF?
 
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CanadaNuclearPasta

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#85
Influenza is right, Mangudais were nerfed hard in the expansions to the point HCA are an almost better alternative. They're essentially a mildly buffed Cav Archer now while being considerably more expensive, in both base unit cost, elite upgrade cost, and castle requirements. Not to mention the horrible idea to play around with their anti-siege bonus since FE (which they couldn't make up their mind about anyway).

Frame delay and anti-siege bonus are the two things that set them apart from other cavalry archers. Nerfs I can understand, but they were done poorly in my opinion
 

CanadaNuclearPasta

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#88
How so ? Can you remind me of the nerfs mangudais got ?
Their frame delay was increased and depending on what expansion their anti-siege bonus was changed in two different ways.
Currently they get an attack bonus (+3, +5) against siege units, except Rams. This alone causes a lot of problems for Mongols. Hussars can deal with Rams, sure, but far slower than most melee units or the Mangudai of AoC. Rams are going to soak up significant amounts of damage.

It's not like Mangudai are the worst unit, but I doubt anyone would include them in a top 5 strongest units list. I think even placing them in top 10 would be pushing it. Comparatively units like Conquistadors and Plumed Archers have kept their status as some of the best in the game.
 

FranceTriRem

Longswordman
Dec 13, 2015
331
1,222
108
22
France
#90
Their frame delay was increased and depending on what expansion their anti-siege bonus was changed in two different ways.
Currently they get an attack bonus (+3, +5) against siege units, except Rams. This alone causes a lot of problems for Mongols. Hussars can deal with Rams, sure, but far slower than most melee units or the Mangudai of AoC. Rams are going to soak up significant amounts of damage.
I just wanted to check, you have no idea what you are talking about.

https://www.forgottenempires.net/aoe2/changelog
Here, go educate yourself before making a fool of yourself.
 
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AustriaDeathcounter

Longswordman
Oct 15, 2017
552
646
108
18
docs.google.com
#91
@TriRem
He propably saw the Wikipedia entry
1543009854820.png
He might have missunderstood where this last sentence is refering to. I certainly i am not sure myself, but i think it the longer arrow. Personally, i like the Forgotten Empire Mandugai better than its current status
 
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CanadaNuclearPasta

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#93
He propably saw the Wikipedia entry
Yeah, I read the patch notes of course but the wiki is an easy reference as opposed to trying to find how many steam posts back.

The point noting that the anti-siege bonus was added back needs to be separate from the one about the removal of the anti-ram bonus. They're two separate bonuses, but as it's written now it looks like the anti-Ram bonus was removed from the overall siege bonus.
 

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