An idea about much more fair game

[deradlerskartal]

Well, if you want a real game, I don't see how a villager can go to the enemy's base barefoot and build a Siege workshop. I mean, where does the wood come from? In the real world, the villager has to carry some resources, e.g. 50 wood, from his own TC to the enemy's base and start the construction. After spending that 50 wood, he has to go home to carry another 50 wood. That way the defender would have a clear advantage because it's faster to carry resources from the defender own base to build fortifications 11

and we are destroying/burning buildings with melee hits. I dont talk about realism/realistic game. I need fair game. if units would go circular path to enemy base I would say same think for fair attacker gameplay. so it is simple; pathing is not fair for unexplored area. defenders much more week against their own base. exploring own base should be much more important then luring enemy boar.

 

[deradlerskartal]

It works like this - It's only us who see the fog of war. Units dont have fog at war at all. They know the paths and units that are in the fog. But they only attack the units in the LoS.

It works via A* pathfinding algorithm (or some variant) - https://medium.com/@nicholas.w.swift/easy-a-star-pathfinding-7e6689c7f7b2

Either they have to work around the entire pathing algorithm or address the LoS within which the units can see the hole, lets say - if the units are within the vicinity about 25 tiles, then they can path through the hole or they have to find the hole by going to nearby tiles.

the problem is unit LOS is 5 tiles but his actions are decided about 25 tiles. it should be decided about what it can see. it should go best/short way for instant stuation.

actual AoEII for now:
orange is away lower than 25 tile to gap.
blue is away from gap more than 25 tile.
unexplored areas are grey. LOS of units are white spray
Orange knows unexplored gap it is in his 25tiles range.
Blue will go front enemy wall and it will wait there.
Both are bullshit.

it should be like that,
continously try best option within instant know world. no any clue about 25 tiles unexplored area.

 

[KolyaKrasotkin]

Messing with path finding does not seem like a good idea; even if one could construct a procedure in their mind that would be self-consistent, "fair", "realistic" and "practical" in theory.

The computational problem (besides the fact that you always have to embed it into a somewhat complex existing code structure and "minor" stuff like "who actually experiences the fog of war?" etc.) are the things, the engine has to calculate for that procedure to work. And fixing that weird phenomenon (I completely agree with that evaluation) that units magically know the fastest way to a target location without touching all the QoL-properties that are associated with that (scouting, villager efficiency etc.) sounds like a lot of calculation to me.

 

[Tendo]

The Question I have is "why"?
Why should that be implemented/changed, what would be the benefit?

I don't see why it would be "more fair", it applies to every player the same way so it is already fair.
Whether you wall or not is your decision, if you think defenders have an unfair disadvantage then try to play more aggresive.
Also Defenders can in the same way try to see whether they have a hole, it works the exact same way for both Players but people walling most of the time are too lazy / forget to test whether they're walled or not, but that's a mistake and not unfair imo.

Also with Production buildings often being unable to be smart when producing units and dropping them outside of the wall where the marker is instead of inside the wall I think it makes little sense to mess even more with units pathing in that regard.

 

[deradlerskartal]

The Question I have is "why"?
Why should that be implemented/changed, what would be the benefit?

I don't see why it would be "more fair", it applies to every player the same way so it is already fair.
Whether you wall or not is your decision, if you think defenders have an unfair disadvantage then try to play more aggresive.
Also Defenders can in the same way try to see whether they have a hole, it works the exact same way for both Players but people walling most of the time are too lazy / forget to test whether they're walled or not, but that's a mistake and not unfair imo.

Also with Production buildings often being unable to be smart when producing units and dropping them outside of the wall where the marker is instead of inside the wall I think it makes little sense to mess even more with units pathing in that regard.

because fair and balanced games live much more long like chess, be much more playeble. a civ or player has an unfair advantege game would be boring. lets make 3x workrate Teuton villigers and all players pick this civ. tell me why not? every players can pick teuton so lets do it.
I mean every little touch for fair and balanced play make a more playeble, awesome game. thats all.

 

[deradlerskartal]

I think if you forward these images to the devs nothing can go wrong

Maybe consider publishing them in a journal aswell

how can I find DEVS team?

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

how can I find DEVS team?

Post on official AOE forum. Although we know some of them also read this.

Your diagrams are pretty clear, not much room for misunderstanding

 

[Paulad]

dude, distance advantage on 1v1 is just 3 sec. it is not just about time. it will effect on gameplay style like luring a boar, trapping a enemy military, scouting logic etc. we need a small buff about homelander defensive game play in early ages.

It's actualy around 1min in game time to go from your TC to opponent TC with a scout, that represent 2 scouts more or 2 archers more if players are doing the exact same thing at the same time.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Pathing would be even more GG than now

 

[Tendo]

I mean every little touch for fair and balanced play make a more playeble, awesome game. thats all.

That's not what I meant, I didn't mean why the game should be more fair^^
I questioned whether that change would make the game more fair, which I heavily doubt.


We're not talking about a Civ, we're talking about a game mechanic.
You can choose your Civ but you can't have different game mechanics working for you compared to your opponent.

Like what exactly is that unfair advantage your talking about?
Attackers can check whether there is a hole with clicking behind the walls? Deffenders can do the exact same thing to find holes in they're own base to close them, how is that unfair?

 

[Tiekel]

This would also solve a niche annoyance of your units pathing all the way around an unscouted wall on say baltic.
It does sound like a big overhaul though. Instead of one static map (I read here) you will need a dynamic one for each player on which pathing is based.
Unexplored buildings should be ignored but the pathing should update every time a new building is discovered.
Now I also know there's a pandora's box of legacy teleporting and foundation trapping bugs waiting to be re-opened

 

[deradlerskartal]

This would also solve a niche annoyance of your units pathing all the way around an unscouted wall on say baltic.
It does sound like a big overhaul though. Instead of one static map (I read here) you will need a dynamic one for each player on which pathing is based.
Unexplored buildings should be ignored but the pathing should update every time a new building is discovered.
Now I also know there's a pandora's box of legacy teleporting and foundation trapping bugs waiting to be re-opened

path will not changed when see a new enemy building or natural blocking. patch always be calculated step by step like real life. we just have a directly linear route in first second. then instantly decide new route every opening/unexploding map tiles. yes it will be a much more progressing load for computer but it is the way .

 

[deradlerskartal]

That's not what I meant, I didn't mean why the game should be more fair^^
I questioned whether that change would make the game more fair, which I heavily doubt.


We're not talking about a Civ, we're talking about a game mechanic.
You can choose your Civ but you can't have different game mechanics working for you compared to your opponent.

Like what exactly is that unfair advantage your talking about?
Attackers can check whether there is a hole with clicking behind the walls? Deffenders can do the exact same thing to find holes in they're own base to close them, how is that unfair?

same. civ or game play changes both same. it works like evolution. if you allow unlogical or unfair status players game style evolve according to it. if you dont give a little homelander advantage like real life, game will changes to much more agressive, early frontal military press game, die in dark age reaseon of luring. actually it is so clean. you cannot go right path way without know the map. that's all. think like that all civ. villiger walk speed can be x10. all players will be equal. many new strategies, game play style will born but end of the day we will hate AoE. fair means equal to same properties in same stiations but it is not mean defenders will know his base same as enemy. it is logically bulshit. you should explore your base map clearly for walling but enemy just click without exploring to find your gap. no way.

 

[NextLever]

It would be so much effort for so little gain, not to mention it would mess with the existing pathing which isn't that great already. Both players being able to find holes in walls this way really isn't much of an issue.

 

[sheeesh]

is that homer simpson's head during a nuke explosion? 11