AOE-IV Allegations of Targeted Harassment Raised for Competitive Age of Empires IV players.

[Adico]

To make myself more clear: I'm not arguing about calling out someone, when he did something wrong, if it can be proven. You have evidence, which seemingly is trustworthy (even though you admit it can be manufactured). However in my opinion the approach of publishing everything without checking with the other side first, is really wrong and puts you on the same level as trashy news sites that publish anything as long as it generates clicks.
You had a very one-sided story by the 'victim', who obviously puts everything up to support his claim as the 'victim'. You claimed that you want to investigate, but why not publish this story after you investigated and talked to both sides? And maybe ask before you publish any private messages? Well, obviously because the 'alleged perpetrator' wouldn't have agreed on it, but at least this would have been the bare minimum effort before publishing anything.
I'm just saying that no side will paint you the full picture and now it seems that there is dirt on both sides. Can't really believe that you still think 'John' is the victim that he claims to be. The truth probably lies in the middle.
I'm critising your, in my eyes, poor judgement of posting this and trusting 'John' blindly to tell the truth about the whole situation.

Edit:
And to make myself even more clear: I'm not defending anyone or anything, because the evidence against these guys is kind of pressing. So you are probably right in that situation, but 'John' has his part in it.
My point is, if you ever hear about allegations from someone you know nothing about, I would at least check with the other side or talk to other people involved, instead of publishing 'evidence' that could very well be forged and/or taken out of context. Posting wrong allegations can really hurt one's reputation and damage it for good.

I did reach out to Adne and Zerton, as seen in the article:

From Adne: After reaching out to him to ask about these allegations, he said there is a discord server for Age of Empires IV players for former Age of Empires Online (Project Celeste) players, but it is only used for talking about AoEIV. He said he only knows the Age of Empires Online official server and the PvP server when asked about other servers or persons who might raise these allegations.

Since I asked about the accusations put forth by John on November 29th, Adne has not replied.

From ZertoN: I first asked him if he knew Adne before, in the 2017 to 2019 period. He said he did, though only a little. After asking about Clan Ghost, a famous clan of early 2017 Age of Empires Online which ZertoN and Adne was part of it. He said he remembers but that the clan disbanded a month or two after Adne joined.

Since I asked about the accusations put forth by John on November 29th, ZertoN has replied the following:

Yeah you met my stalker, [John has] been doing this since 4 years now. i don’t want to give [them] any attention, i don’t know, i don’t think it’s worth addressing honestly

I've tried to reach out twice to them about this and they've chosen to not reply back. I waited for a week before publishing this so I could consult with peers on what would be the proper way to disclose these materials and have a fair and balanced publication of them.

I've told them both that I have been notified of allegations and was in possession of evidence from one party. If they wanted they could talk to me and discuss the issue so I could know their side. They either refused or kept silent.

 

[The_Philos]

I've told them both that I have been notified of allegations and was in possession of evidence from one party. If they wanted they could talk to me and discuss the issue so I could know their side. They either refused or kept silent.

Alright, fair point. I assume, you didn't tell them that you plan to publish this as an article, otherwise I don't really understand the statement by Adne which followed on 11th of December. Besides the point that it paints a different picture of your 'victim', which he himself confirms in a way, since he admitted to contacting the university in his statement on the same day. There are so many things in this story, that don't quite add up, that I really don't see the benefit of getting involved in this. It's good that you exposed them for their inhuman language. I think for that alone they should be banned from every competitive tournament forever.
But I don't really see the benefit of trying to resolve their situation with 'John'. There is no side I would fight for, because apparently 'John' was okay with the Nazi propaganda or he wouldn't have been ever involved with these guys.

 

[oozkan]

From article "person for harassment and had scammed them once over a period spanning 2017 to 2019"

How come this is AOE4 related? Clickkbait journalism, you know nobody will read it if you write AOE online right, have respect to your job first.

Also publishing personal messages without knowledge of sender or without request of law enforcement/courts is forbidden in many countries, almost all. I hope you won't get fined.

 

How was that person with the Nazi-Emotes on their server even able to play today in Winter Series 1? @Lord_patito @EGCTV

 

[Tempires]

How was that person with the Nazi-Emotes on their server even able to play today in Winter Series 1? @Lord_patito @EGCTV

Such emotes are not illegal or whatever

 

Such emotes are not illegal

In Germany, the state where ZertoN is from, they indeed are.

Strafgesetzbuch section 86a - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Besides I'm rather unsure whether you really want to tolerate someone like this even if it's not forbidden in your state.

 

[Tocaraca]

There is no reason for this to be public. Although I suppose it is helpful in case I run into one of these people in the future as I will know to avoid them :P

 

[Tempires]

In Germany, the state where ZertoN is from, they indeed are.

ok, probably that's better direction than EGC then? EGC isn't german court to judge and we are talking about 2017-2019 period. Why wouldn't they be able to play on winter series? He doesn't break any rules of tournament. Zerton is like top 50 players in aoe4 so he has same rights to play as any other player.

 

ok, probably that's better direction than EGC then? EGC isn't court and we are talking about 2017-2019 period. Why wouldn't they be able to play on winter series. Zerton is like top 50 players in aoe4 and fits to tournament rules so he has same rights to play as any other player.

Because you might want to have a line that you don't cross and where you don't tolerate an opinion. E.g. this line could be crossed by actually playing tournament games with someone that finds it funny to post Nazi symbols in their Discord and plays as a "Fuehrer". You can tolerate whoever you want, others don't need to. So I'm just making the tournament organizers aware of a person they give a platform and that they enable to get a foot into the community.

 

[Tempires]

Because you might want to have a line that you don't cross and where you don't tolerate an opinion. E.g. this line could be crossed by actually playing tournament games with someone that finds it funny to post Nazi symbols in their Discord and plays as a "Fuehrer". You can tolerate whoever you want, others don't need to. So I'm just making the tournament organizers aware of a person they give a platform and that they enable to get a foot into the community.

If you don't want to tolerate something then you should make better rules and set requirements for specific tournament. Currently there is no such rule to prevent Zerton playing( rules are quite barebones overall). Multiple top aoe2 pros like Hera,Mbl, Capoch,Bl4ck, riverplatation and etc. who are still allowed play too despite their similar dramas so why Zerton is not tolerated but they are?

 

[EliteGamingChannel]

I'll provide a full response at some point. But I can give you a TL:DR now.

The allegations are extremely serious. The content of the allegations was something I found upsetting and hurtful on a personal level, not just a professional one. When I was presented with the allegations, I didn't sweep it under the rug but spent an incredibly long time contemplating what to do. I literally lost sleep over it. In a literal sense.

I reached out to ZertoN, as well as others, to try and get my head around the issue and work out what to do. In the end, I was convinced by ZertoN's response to me that he was truly regretful, remorseful and embarrassed about this behavior, which took place over four years ago. People change a lot in four years, and believed the person I was speaking to was not the same person that those Discord messaged represented.

I disagree with the line of argument that we shouldn't have requirements for the standards we set players to when they're in our events. Creating a safe and welcoming environment is very important, and should be important to everyone in the space. I had a tough time with this, and I'm not even sure I made the right decision. In the end, however, I believe I'd have achieved nothing with a ban for something that happened so long ago. If genuine remorse and willingness to improve and express growth isn't rewarded with a second chance then we doom everyone that made a terrible mistake to a lifetime of misery.

My decision was to allow ZertoN to compete in our open events, but not to make any specific invitations for the time being. I don't really wanna get into personal stuff, but I will say that as the grandchild of German refugees, I'm really hating the points being made in this thread that we just shouldn't care about because it didn't happen in a tournament. This is 100% something everyone should care about, and most certainly something I care about.

If people want to think I made a bad decision that's 100% okay, but definitely please don't think I just didn't care.

 

I'll provide a full response at some point. But I can give you a TL:DR now.

The allegations are extremely serious. The content of the allegations was something I found upsetting and hurtful on a personal level, not just a professional one. When I was presented with the allegations, I didn't sweep it under the rug but spent an incredibly long time contemplating what to do. I literally lost sleep over it. In a literal sense.

I reached out to ZertoN, as well as others, to try and get my head around the issue and work out what to do. In the end, I was convinced by ZertoN's response to me that he was truly regretful, remorseful and embarrassed about this behavior, which took place over four years ago. People change a lot in four years, and believed the person I was speaking to was not the same person that those Discord messaged represented.

I disagree with the line of argument that we shouldn't have requirements for the standards we set players to when they're in our events. Creating a safe and welcoming environment is very important, and should be important to everyone in the space. I had a tough time with this, and I'm not even sure I made the right decision. In the end, however, I believe I'd have achieved nothing with a ban for something that happened so long ago. If genuine remorse and willingness to improve and express growth isn't rewarded with a second chance then we doom everyone that made a terrible mistake to a lifetime of misery.

My decision was to allow ZertoN to compete in our open events, but not to make any specific invitations for the time being. I don't really wanna get into personal stuff, but I will say that as the grandchild of German refugees, I'm really hating the points being made in this thread that we just shouldn't care about because it didn't happen in a tournament. This is 100% something everyone should care about, and most certainly something I care about.

If people want to think I made a bad decision that's 100% okay, but definitely please don't think I just didn't care.

Hey, you definitely have my compassion, it really doesn't sound like an easy decision. It honours you that you give this person a second chance after his wrongdoings, I hope that this person also understands this and reflects on the bullshit he has spouted. However, I also find it very strange that the person in question does not comment on this, even when asked several times. That would at least be a sensible thing to do after such accusations have been made. So I guess, the future will have to show what happens with this situation. Thank you for your response.

 

[Tocaraca]

Multiple top aoe2 pros like Hera,Mbl, Capoch,Bl4ck, riverplatation and etc. who are still allowed play too despite their similar dramas so why Zerton is not tolerated but they are?

Hera and MbL using the F slur does not compare at all to what happened here lmfao

 

[Tempires]

Hera and MbL using the F slur does not compare at all to what happened here lmfao

@simonsan refers emotes not what players are talking in discussions. He was specially worried about emotes while ignored real talk (which he should be more worried than some emotes looking at his responds to me )

anyway Hera drama he was purposely toxic against other players and wished them to die in top of all while smurfing and he admits it.

 

[The_Philos]

@simonsan refers emotes not what players are talking in discussions. He was specially worried about emotes while ignored real talk (which he should be more worried than some emotes looking at his responds to me )

A bit nitpicky here. He may have complained about the symbols, but it obviously implied the whole situation around it. At least the symbols stand for a certain ideology and using them speaks even more volumes than the few sentences from the discord chat (they are very much in line with the ideology btw).
I'm really glad that @EliteGamingChannel understands the gravity of the situation. Hopefully Zerton is true to his word and learned from it.
Considering the Hera drama: IIRC he received backlash for it and apologised for his behaviour. He admitted to his wrong-doing and proved that he can do better. No reason to bring this situation up again.
Not to speak of that is in no way comparable to this situation, since ZertoN's case is way more serious. And if you don't understand that spreading Nazi propaganda is way more serious than some dumb sentences thrown in a fit of rage, then, please, educate yourself.

 

[Tempires]

A bit nitpicky here. He may have complained about the symbols, but it obviously implied the whole situation around it. At least the symbols stand for a certain ideology and using them speaks even more volumes than the few sentences from the discord chat (they are very much in line with the ideology btw).
I'm really glad that @EliteGamingChannel understands the gravity of the situation. Hopefully Zerton is true to his word and learned from it.
Considering the Hera drama: IIRC he received backlash for it and apologised for his behaviour. He admitted to his wrong-doing and proved that he can do better. No reason to bring this situation up again.
Not to speak of that is in no way comparable to this situation, since ZertoN's case is way more serious. And if you don't understand that spreading Nazi propaganda is way more serious than some dumb sentences thrown in a fit of rage, then, please, educate yourself.

Well then he shouldn't specially mention emotes then. on Reddit he only shared picture of emotes as only reference to this topic (he made his comment here same time).

i didn't say Hera case was more serious or whatever. If you want to punish one you should punish others too for lower wrongdoings to have ground to punish anyone in first place. Seems like ZertoN is fine too after for small apology(not even for victim) as with other cases and then we all live like nothing ever happened. Seems quite easy to get away whatever you ever do. AoEZone is nowdays such forgiving place maybe we should give cheaters like ertug who have said to have changed another change too?

 

[Tocaraca]

anyway Hera drama he was purposely toxic against other players and wished them to die in top of all while smurfing and he admits it.

telling somebody in a video game in a fit of rage that you hope they die, while reprehensible (I am not innocent of this) is nowhere near as bad as literally being a Nazi and saying "I hate jews".

 

[The_Philos]

If you want to punish one you should punish others too for lower wrongdoings to have ground to punish anyone in first place. Seems like ZertoN is fine too after for small apology(not even for victim) as with other cases and then we all live like nothing ever happened. Seems quite easy to get away whatever you ever do.

Yes, I'm on your side in this. Misbehaviour should always have consequences and some form of punishment is required, because it makes clear that there are lines you do not cross. I for one wouldn't have let ZertoN play the tournament and wouldn't want to get associated with him in the near future. At least the evidence shown suggested that it is not just a 'juvenile phase of stupidity', imo. However I understand EGC's reasoning and in the end that is his/her/their decision. And it may be right or wrong.

 

[IYIyTh]

Sorry, I think you have the wrong target audience.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

telling somebody in a video game in a fit of rage that you hope they die, while reprehensible (I am not innocent of this) is nowhere near as bad as literally being a Nazi and saying "I hate jews".

He didn't say that "in a fit of rage". Go through that thread again.

 

[Lord Bolton]

He didn't say that "in a fit of rage". Go through that thread again.

how do you always spin the discussion away from the topic discussed? or do you lack critical thinking?

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

how do you always spin the discussion away from the topic discussed? or do you lack critical thinking?

I respond to what I find interesting, anything else is jsut blah blah in here

EDIT : I didn't even read the allegations mentioned by OP, tl;dr, just stopped here to clarify the "Hera drama" from the past : - D

 

[otw_Da]

First time in the internet, huh? I feel sorry for ya.
Here have some help.

First rule: If some african prince is offering you thousand tons of gold and millions of money - ofc trust him and do what ever he says.


Ironie off - just wanted to say you missed the point where you should have stopped trusting some cheap internet strangers and better should have turned discord/pc offline.
Internet is a hard kindergarten for fools.