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Aftermath takes issue with Tournament Rule Enforcement (-$300) | MembTV's BOA3
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IYIyTh
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SuperskinnyBLS
Nili would gladly AL the **** out of Daut xd
$300 is not a lot either to Memb or to MBL.
But we're getting mighty close to losing MBL over this. I don't think we'd lose Memb if that punishment never got handed out.
I feel like we're making a huge mistake here over a petty amount of money. We're still just recovering from the AoE4 fiasco and now we're risking pissing off a top player and possibly more (his team mates).
But we're getting mighty close to losing MBL over this. I don't think we'd lose Memb if that punishment never got handed out.
I feel like we're making a huge mistake here over a petty amount of money. We're still just recovering from the AoE4 fiasco and now we're risking pissing off a top player and possibly more (his team mates).
Do you really believe this or are you just stirring the pot? If the top 16 players quit tomorrow and said they're not playing RBW do you really think fans would tune in? Would Sebastian2002 vs. Ubetnir really draw the same audience as Mbl vs. Jordan? I wouldn't care about that at all and I wouldn't watch one minute of it. And it's the same in real sports, household names matter a ton.
paradox303How is the top 16 walking away even a likely hypothetical?
People retire at different times. Lots of players have walked over the years. There will always be different and new players that fill voids.
It's not...but it illustrates how dumb it is to say that players are replaceable and need TOs more than TOs need players.
Who the **** cares lol
If mbl or any other pro leave because of 300/5 = 60$ and because of that miss future opportunities to win 10.000$ then he would be a complete *****.
Stop liking asses pls
do you understand what a hypothetical is? have you ever had a discussion where an assumption was made or a scenario imagined for the sake of a larger point?
If I had two wheels I would be a bicycle.
What professional sport tolerates players’ violations of media rules or accusations against organizers? The players would be fined or sanctioned.
If the community wants professionalization, it’s clear that such behavior should not be tolerated.
Nili is more of Tournament Organizer than a player (don't get angry, Nili >.< )
This entire drama is absolutely ridiculous IMO.
I would agree that the communication from the admins could've been better. But it's not like the fine was high, it's 3%. Throwing this level of tantrum over 300$ split across the teammates? Completely overblown. Claiming memb wants to eat up the 300$? He makes that amount in 2-3 days of streaming, why TF would he do it?
I would agree that the communication from the admins could've been better. But it's not like the fine was high, it's 3%. Throwing this level of tantrum over 300$ split across the teammates? Completely overblown. Claiming memb wants to eat up the 300$? He makes that amount in 2-3 days of streaming, why TF would he do it?
Never bow to bullies.
The people coming at the players and at MBL have a weird view to me. The players are what make the experience fun for the casual fans. MBL literally carried the torch for AoE2 during the time everyone else was playing AoE4. I think a warning to MBL and aM would have been enough. A monetary fine is over the top and 3% isn’t even stated in the rules.
If we are this close to "losing" mbl then he's so far out the door already that there's nothing we could do anyway. No need pandering to poor behavior just because someone has a Bigger Number Rating in the video game.
When top players stop playing there are usually folks to take over. Chris still hangs around and is a genuine delight to watch play on stream, but he's not winning tournaments as he did in the past. It's not as if the world stopped when Halen/Ruso/Ruit et al stopped playing. The world didn't stop when Tatoh stopped winning 1v1 S tier tournaments frequently.
There will always be players so long as there are tournaments and sponsors for them. There will always be tournaments so long as the production value is worth selling to a sponsor. While some are enchanted with fan-favorites or brands, the aoe2 community will gladly ride the wave of the next Lierrey as soon as given the opportunity.
It's not a matter of balancing the feelings of how a top player will respond to structure, but the risk(s) of not adhering to basic production asks impacts the entire aoe2 scene outside of one player and/or one team.
People are in for a rude awakening when folks like Viper start settling down more with injuries, age, and family -- or a personal decision to do something different. I think it's fairly evident from the AOE4 reveal that the pro scene in aoe2 as a full time job is fleeting, and each would gladly jump to a new game if it proved lucrative (that's not a knock -- it's their life, prerogative, and best interest for self and family to do so.)
Still think people will watch/play aoe2 for the foreseeable future since so many have grown up on it. All this to say the argument over what piece of the pie is more important is immaterial -- the entire issue here and at hand is about what basic structure is necessary to promote the scene -- which invariably includes even top pro's adhering to basic administrative structure in tournaments for production value.
Protection of the value of production imo is way more important (even to Aftermath in terms of greater potential of future tournaments/larger/continued prize pools) than anyone's feelings for whether a mistake or three deserved a fine.
tldr
You won't have to worry about fines if there aren't sponsors for prize pools to begin with.
Aftermath ironically stands to gain most from these production enhancing/sustaining rules since they win a good chunk of all prize pools anyway, so I don'treally have any sympathy.
You won't have to worry about fines if there aren't sponsors for prize pools to begin with.
Aftermath ironically stands to gain most from these production enhancing/sustaining rules since they win a good chunk of all prize pools anyway, so I don'treally have any sympathy.
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This is just like football when the refferee gives a penalty kick that didn’t exist, refferee wants to take the spotlight more than the players, and that should never be a thing. admins should not have any powers, just stfu and do your job. Aoe is a huge game and it is based on players, not admins. Who cares about player interview, who cares about players webcam, we are here to enjoy the game and watch good games, the less interference from anyone else is what most people want.
memb and admins should apologize and give the winning team the money they deserved for winning the games.
memb and admins should apologize and give the winning team the money they deserved for winning the games.
Aoe2 tournaments is based on free streaming, but this was not always the case. A few years ago it was more and more common to have closed streaming. This was very bad for the viewers and restricted many from watching the tournaments.
Having player interviews and webcams is a way for a tournament organizer to keep exclusive content on his platform, while also allowing for open streaming.
"Tournament Organizers need Players more than Players need Tournament Organizers" - a quote I heard multiple times in this thread. Here's my 2 cents :
1) Agreed. Players have invested the time and effort to improve their skills so much that they have a fanbase and can generate an income by just streaming even ladders games and YT. Ofc tournaments help in exposure and additional prize money if they manage to get far ahead, but difference is players can still sustain without tournaments. Same cannot be said for hosts and admins. Hosts/Casters literally depend on players participating in their tourneys (specifically, prominent big name players will attract exponentially more viewers because of fanbase - a Viper - Liereyy final will easily have over 10k+ viewers, will it even nearly be the same for Sebastian2002 vs Ubetnir?)
2) Growth. Tournament Hosts need players for growth of their channel. If Memb did not have the top 16 participating in his tournaments, do we think anyone would show up to his channel? Maybe the OG ones (500-600) will, but his channel won't "grow", it will be stagnant, no matter how professional he makes the tournament, with interviews and voice comms and such. On the other hand, players grow their channels every day, via simply streaming their ladder games. A tournament top 8 finish may result in their popularity rating shooting high, but the thing is AoE does not really have every single pro player as full time streamer, and all the top 8 players average around 800-1000 viewers on a daily stream. So a "newer" player who breaks into the top 8 will likely be well known (since AoE community is quite small) and so already have a fanbase.
3) Skill. This is what makes all the difference imo. Tournament Hosts have a different kind of skillset, which I agree is important and tedious at times - dealing with Admin decisions, player availabilities, making sure everything goes smoothly, etc etc. But all this does not really require any skills related to AoE as a game, its more like managing people. And if you think about it, in the Corporate World, someone in a managerial position was also a rookie employee first, who then worked hard to climb the ladder. So that is something that can be learnt as well - which we are seeing - Players hosting their own tourneys and learning from it. But, the vice versa cannot be true. Tournament Hosts would not be able to play at the same level as pro players, no matter how hard they try (Keep Going Nili and T90, you can do it
) , sorry Memb, this was sort of directed at you)
Conclusion? In a small community like AoEII, players will always be more important than tournament hosts. Yes, hosts and admins are important as well, in making sure things run smoothly, but AoE will stay alive due to players streaming. If players leave, hosts will fail to keep the scene alive by themselves. Memb is a legend of this game and dedicated years of his life to this community, but it was players' games which he casted that kept the game alive. "If Memb didn't cast, someone else would. But if Viper didn't play, no one would watch, no matter who casts."
Last thing : History. AoE is still alive after 20 years, because there are players who are playing the game. Pro players who have a fanbase which attract viewers numbers, and casters who deliver it entertainingly - all which made sponsors like Microsoft decide to invest in this game and make it possible for more tournaments to happen and admins to get paid and such.
1) Agreed. Players have invested the time and effort to improve their skills so much that they have a fanbase and can generate an income by just streaming even ladders games and YT. Ofc tournaments help in exposure and additional prize money if they manage to get far ahead, but difference is players can still sustain without tournaments. Same cannot be said for hosts and admins. Hosts/Casters literally depend on players participating in their tourneys (specifically, prominent big name players will attract exponentially more viewers because of fanbase - a Viper - Liereyy final will easily have over 10k+ viewers, will it even nearly be the same for Sebastian2002 vs Ubetnir?)
2) Growth. Tournament Hosts need players for growth of their channel. If Memb did not have the top 16 participating in his tournaments, do we think anyone would show up to his channel? Maybe the OG ones (500-600) will, but his channel won't "grow", it will be stagnant, no matter how professional he makes the tournament, with interviews and voice comms and such. On the other hand, players grow their channels every day, via simply streaming their ladder games. A tournament top 8 finish may result in their popularity rating shooting high, but the thing is AoE does not really have every single pro player as full time streamer, and all the top 8 players average around 800-1000 viewers on a daily stream. So a "newer" player who breaks into the top 8 will likely be well known (since AoE community is quite small) and so already have a fanbase.
3) Skill. This is what makes all the difference imo. Tournament Hosts have a different kind of skillset, which I agree is important and tedious at times - dealing with Admin decisions, player availabilities, making sure everything goes smoothly, etc etc. But all this does not really require any skills related to AoE as a game, its more like managing people. And if you think about it, in the Corporate World, someone in a managerial position was also a rookie employee first, who then worked hard to climb the ladder. So that is something that can be learnt as well - which we are seeing - Players hosting their own tourneys and learning from it. But, the vice versa cannot be true. Tournament Hosts would not be able to play at the same level as pro players, no matter how hard they try (Keep Going Nili and T90, you can do it
) , sorry Memb, this was sort of directed at you)Conclusion? In a small community like AoEII, players will always be more important than tournament hosts. Yes, hosts and admins are important as well, in making sure things run smoothly, but AoE will stay alive due to players streaming. If players leave, hosts will fail to keep the scene alive by themselves. Memb is a legend of this game and dedicated years of his life to this community, but it was players' games which he casted that kept the game alive. "If Memb didn't cast, someone else would. But if Viper didn't play, no one would watch, no matter who casts."
Last thing : History. AoE is still alive after 20 years, because there are players who are playing the game. Pro players who have a fanbase which attract viewers numbers, and casters who deliver it entertainingly - all which made sponsors like Microsoft decide to invest in this game and make it possible for more tournaments to happen and admins to get paid and such.
I rarely post nowadays but the post above was such a nice read and definitely agree with most of it.
The argument of "who is more important, caster OR player!?!?" is an inane argument that usually flares up in a few of the following instances on streams/these boards.
I'll let the peanut gallery decide which instance this falls under.
To entertain the supposition that has absolutely no bearing on a how a community should respond to an issue like that which occurred in the OP -- I completely disagree that one (caster/player) is valued more than the other -- certainly not to an extent that we invent different standards based on how good someone is at a video game.
- Competing business interests. Certain pro's/casters alike have publicly decried when tournaments have had restrictions on casting one's own games or have had onerous travel commitments. People have their own lucrative streams to maintain and not being able to stream, or not necessarily streaming to the same extent/exposure level is a natural/ongoing concern. The participation/exposure of a tournament comes at the opportunity cost of consistent channel activity. This is a completely healthy friction that inherently exists by the dynamic of our sport for both players/casters, and isn't going anywhere.
- When pro's demand more compensation for showmatches/their time yet fail to make appearances or cancel, causing casters to make comments hinting at the constant struggle of organizing a showmatch and acquiring commensurate value for the investment from part time players with extremely variable maturity and/or priorities.
- Petty disagreements when certain pro (or semi-pro) players fail to adhere to basic tournament rules in place to enhance professionalism and organization of the production. Usually occurs when tournament admins actually do something about it for a change instead of bowing to popular figures in the community who are used to being cowed to. Typically followed by fanboys/girls incredulous that their favorite player faces the consequences of their own action(s).
I'll let the peanut gallery decide which instance this falls under.
To entertain the supposition that has absolutely no bearing on a how a community should respond to an issue like that which occurred in the OP -- I completely disagree that one (caster/player) is valued more than the other -- certainly not to an extent that we invent different standards based on how good someone is at a video game.
The naivety, downplaying, and condescension towards the time/effort that goes into casting and tournament hosting was amusing, though.
The idea that a caster necessarily needs top level players is incorrect.
T90, one of the games most prolific casters channel largely originated from viewer/community games or low level player content. In fact, I would contend that T90 is not necessarily a prolific caster, but a youtuber -- who takes an immense amount of time to edit videos before publication.
There are also plenty of casters who are not great at the game but have respectable viewership.
The argument also has a flaw in suggesting that popularity/growth is entirely based on how good someone is at aoe2, contradictorily stating that a new top 8 player will instantly have a large following. If a player in the top 8 stops playing, you now just have a different top 8. So long as people continue to value the entertainment value of aoe2, one can't simply suggest that a game that survived its multiplayer service being dropped from zone.com couldn't carry on if a few folks stopped playing and the production value of the sport remained the same -- barring conditions outside the hands of either player/caster.
Would it be unfortunate if a few pro's stopped playing, or casters? Sure. Is that a reason to bend rules/sacrifice production value of the sport?
Absolutely not.
The idea that a caster necessarily needs top level players is incorrect.
T90, one of the games most prolific casters channel largely originated from viewer/community games or low level player content. In fact, I would contend that T90 is not necessarily a prolific caster, but a youtuber -- who takes an immense amount of time to edit videos before publication.
There are also plenty of casters who are not great at the game but have respectable viewership.
The argument also has a flaw in suggesting that popularity/growth is entirely based on how good someone is at aoe2, contradictorily stating that a new top 8 player will instantly have a large following. If a player in the top 8 stops playing, you now just have a different top 8. So long as people continue to value the entertainment value of aoe2, one can't simply suggest that a game that survived its multiplayer service being dropped from zone.com couldn't carry on if a few folks stopped playing and the production value of the sport remained the same -- barring conditions outside the hands of either player/caster.
Would it be unfortunate if a few pro's stopped playing, or casters? Sure. Is that a reason to bend rules/sacrifice production value of the sport?
Absolutely not.
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Nah, what is weird is the entire overblown tantrum. It's 3% FFS.
I get what you're saying. Mbl is one of my favs, I am not saying this to **** on him. He always speaks his mind without filter or hiding his feelings, like you said, he spoke his mind about aoe4, which most of us knew at the time it was released or even when we played the early release/demo, but only major pro player who said it out loud was Mbl. Respect for that.
But sometimes he should cool off before throwing random accusations and burning bridges with people who he have known for a very long time. Memb has always been supportive of him in his streams.
It's good to speak your mind and be frank. But you've to first make sure what you're saying is thought out and articulated. You can express your anger/displeasure without going completely off the rail.
If you ask me. Take the entire outburst from AM/MBL away, and I can sympathize with their story. The communication from admins was lacking.
But at the end of the day, it's 3%. 300$ split across teammates.
Based on many posts in this thread, it also seems like 3% is a standard practice for certain rule violations. So, it's not really random.
Wrong take.
Tournaments, organization and production quality is an important part of any successful esports.
Red Bull, KOTD, HC, NAC etc are amazing a large part due to production quality, not just because of good games (which is Def important I agree) and prize pool.
If all that you say is all what is important, then you'd find ranked games just as important and entertaining as matches in S tier tournaments
NextLeverI can't tell if this is satire anymore. MBL is one of my favorites but if we're "might close" to losing him over what you could at worst describe as a slightly harsh fine, then he had no future in aoe whatsoever anyway.
The whole thing is pretty ridiculous. The fine clearly wasn't completely unwarranted. Was it too harsh, I don't know but accusing Memb and others of trying to pocket the money for themselves, that's pretty low.
Tell me you weren't here without actually saying it. Or if you were, you didn't pay attention whatsoever.
As T90 already mentioned in this thread, Viper disappeared from the scene shortly after T90 started making content. Didn't matter much. In fact, T90's most explosive growth happened AFTER he stopped focusing on pro players and instead directed his attention to community games and lower ELOs. That's directly disproving all of your arguments.
T90 is the biggest aoe youtuber and the one who (re-)introduced most players to the scene. Second one would be Spirit of the Law who never bothered with pro players but has large following anyway and brought in thousands of people into HD and DE. Memb, as mentioned many times, builds his streams largely around Black Forest team games, not pro games. Memb and T90 are by far the biggest casters in the scene and nobody else comes close to them. There are other great casters like Dave or Nili but the difference in consistency and sheer output isn't even comparable.
Viper is an incredibly popular streamer in the AoE scene but it took him time to reach that point, for a long time he was below T90. TBH imo the reason he grew so much is mainly because he actually became a great streamer first and much less so how good he is as a player. Viper streams are good because of interactions with chat, explaining his thought process, trying out interesting strategies, chill personality and many other reasons combining into top-tier package. Other pro players who started streaming weren't able to replicate his success even though their aoe skills aren't much different from Viper's - but their streaming skills aren't up to his level and that's the deciding factor.
Such statement is just outright wrong. We only have a couple of dedicated casters. There's less of them than there are pro players. Yes, Viper brings in a lot of fans and you can see that by view numbers when he drops out of a tournament but even when he doesn't show up, thousands of people still watch the games. Because large number of us are here for good, quality, entertaining games, doesn't matter who participates in those. Hell, quite often "best game of the tournament/year" doesn't even include Viper or liereyy, like for example the widely renowned MbL vs Capoch.
BTW i consider this whole "who is more important" debate an absolute lunacy.
Both are important and both would be in much worse state without the other but both would also survive without the other.
just because t90 said something doesn't mean it's actually true, lol. T90's claim: "Viper left the game for a year right after I started"
The actual reality:
T90's earliest YT videos and twitch streams: ~May 2015
Viper's tournament participation dates:
Viper never left the game for a year during this time. The largest break appears to be between April 2016 and Late June 2016 when CMTFS began. Maybe i overestimated its importance to his growth, but expert#1 vs expert#2 was undoubtedly the most common content when he was starting his channel
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I really dunno why some posts here both on and off topic, went into what looks like petty or senseless arguments (not necessarily talking about you flu). I guess arguing anonymously is an internet pastime but it feels like a waste of time and energy. And also unneeded stress.
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