Aftermath takes issue with Tournament Rule Enforcement (-$300) | MembTV's BOA3

[Progeusz]

Why only admins are allowed to have good will

Nobody said that. Stop jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst.

 

[just_sum_guy]

I'd say the application of the rules was overly harsh. With that said, MBL handled it in the absolute worst way possible. Everyone looks bad here.

 

[Progeusz]

and [why] we should trust them

Because as far as we know they have been doing fantastic job for long years and there's no reason to NOT trust them. There were some small controversies here and there, sure, but they either got resolved peacefully or were very minor and they were situations where it was hard to really blame anybody, more like unfortunate coincidences/misunderstandings where decisions were justified.
There's no confirmed case of embezzlement, arbitrary stealizng prizes and similar situation of admins acting in bad will ever happening so your insinuations are really misplaced. What's more, any possible controversies you could provide pale in comparison to hundreds of events which were managed very well, honestly better than they should have with resources available, only showing how much passion people involved have for the game and managing the events as well as possible. That's something which should be kept in mind and trying to ignore that is very disrespectful and imo outright wrong to do.
AoE 2 isn't a huge esports scene which can afford all the administrative bureaucracy or has hundreds of people who can replace any given position, stop treating it like one. I normally hate the line of argumentation like "try doing it yourself before commentating" but when you're acting so accusatory for no reason, nah, against reason, i do feel the urge to direct such words at you. Do you have any idea how much work it takes to organize and manage events? How many years has it been happening for? How unprofitable it could have been at times? And yet these people continue putting in loads of effort into providing the best possible events for us.

while players don't have the same opportunity.

Are you seriously advocating for PLAYERS to decide how penalties should be handled? That's ridiculous. And yes, that's what your comment implies in the context of this discussion. If you meant something else, express yourself properly.

 

[felix.feroc]

I'd say the application of the rules was overly harsh.

Based on what? It seems 3% is a standard penalty for minor violations.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I agree with the 2.8/10 drama rating, but still appreciate the attempt.

We have been dramaless for a while now and urgently need more material

Drama threads got boring for me because they always got filled with the same cast of characters performatively whining about drama and negativity on AoEZone despite their consistent history of feeding these things themselves.

 

[MadeByJoe]

Based on what? It seems 3% is a standard penalty for minor violations.

Then put this in the rules. "Small violations get you a 3% penalty, disqualifications come with 50% penalty unless you've won the earlier rounds because of the rule break." Or something like that.

 

[IYIyTh]

Then put this in the rules. "Small violations get you a 3% penalty, disqualifications come with 50% penalty unless you've won the earlier rounds because of the rule break." Or something like that.

Or, you don't -- that way you don't have to fine a team 3% for not showing up to their set on time -- which happened in a major tournament recently -- I believe a team in BOA 3 and Memb's stream was kept waiting for an hour past midnight because the other team couldn't field 3 players. Or Sumoi during ROTE3...

Anyone want to humor me and guess which team was responsible for those delays?

At some point you have to own when you fail and just bite the bullet if you're going to not follow rules.

Usually when things get to this point my feeling is that they've exhausted their nine lives and at some point in order for those clauses to have teeth they have to be used -- else players will just ran rampant and ignore any requirements -- and production -- (and ultimately the entire aoe2 scene,) suffers.

WRT codifying penalties -- seems like a "be careful what you wish for," scenario -- as the teams most clamoring for codified fines are those most likely to be impacted -- and ceteris paribus, those to be most negatively impacted when admins can no longer excuse minor infractions in fairness to donors, production, and other players. $300 becomes $900 very quickly, etc.

 

[Pinch3Terneira]

Summa iuria summa iniuria

 

[Musashi]

Honestly, all what Chrazini wrote makes a lot of sense. Can the whole communication be better? Sure, but if MBL would've stayed in the chat for 5 more minutes there wouldn't have been a problem. Charazini told him to stay, and he left anyway.

The admin job's is hard enough to then cope with that lack of respect. "If would've known it was $300 we would've made him stay" is BS - that's literally accepting that you were on the wrong side here, and that you didn't care for the consequences unless it was really hurting you.

Next time fine them $1000.

 

[paradox303]

I feel it is counterproductive to punish the most valuable resource we have in competitive AoE2: the actual high level players.

Don't forget without the players we wouldn't have any tournaments to organize. All these casters and organizers basically feed off the the high level ability of the players.

At the end of the day players don't need casters. They get by just fine with donations and subs on Twitch + whatever YT revenue they get.

But casters do need players, because without the players their content is literal trash.

Players need tournament organisers a lot more than TOs need players. There will always be more players. Players are one of most replaceable assets in sport. Age of Empires is slightly special because of the small player pool, but that's not really my point.

Event organisers (good ones) are incredibly hard to find. Take a look at sports again, events fall away all the time, not because of lack of players/entrants it's usually due to the TO not being able to fulfil duties anymore then pulling out.

Why only admins are allowed to have good will and we should trust them while players don't have the same opportunity.

Yes! Let's trust the players! Let the players make their own tournament. I'm sure they will love making a handbook (if they even bother to), dealing with scheduling issues, dealing with communication issues, giving ALs to their peers. I'm sure you will find many volunteers! /s

 

[robo]

Yes! Let's trust the players! Let the players make their own tournament. I'm sure they will love making a handbook (if they even bother to), dealing with scheduling issues, dealing with communication issues, giving ALs to their peers. I'm sure you will find many volunteers! /s

We certainly haven't seen any examples of this recently

 

[Aten]

We certainly haven't seen any examples of this recently

Badly run tournaments organised by players? Now who could you possibly be aiming that at?

 

[King_Marv]

I feel it is counterproductive to punish the most valuable resource we have in competitive AoE2: the actual high level players.

Don't forget without the players we wouldn't have any tournaments to organize. All these casters and organizers basically feed off the the high level ability of the players.

At the end of the day players don't need casters. They get by just fine with donations and subs on Twitch + whatever YT revenue they get.

But casters do need players, because without the players their content is literal trash.

Must be a troll 100%

T90 content is basically casting low Elo guys which made him the biggest aoe streamer.

If it wasn’t about the organizers of tournaments and castes this game would be dead long time ago.

How would anybody know about Hera/viper/bact etc if there weren’t people like memb/t90/nili /zeroempries who were screaming their names into the camera in front of 10000 viewers ?

 

[Influenza]

Must be a troll 100%

T90 content is basically casting low Elo guys which made him the biggest aoe streamer.

If it wasn’t about the organizers of tournaments and castes this game would be dead long time ago.

How would anybody know about Hera/viper/bact etc if there weren’t people like memb/t90/nili /zeroempries who were screaming their names into the camera in front of 10000 viewers ?

You seem to be forgetting that the people you are referring to literally built their streams from nothing on the backs of expert players playing ranked games and tournaments against each other.

 

[King_Marv]

You seem to be forgetting that the people you are referring to literally built their streams from nothing on the backs of expert players playing ranked games and tournaments against each other.

They casted the best players at that time. Doesn’t matter if the name was viper. If I would have been the best player they would have casted me. But yes they also took viper and Hera etc.

But memb for example streamed 8 hours a day Black Forest 4v4.
T90 did his low Elo legends and also the others had their series with normal players.

Pro players, especially special players are not needed. You could take any other player and hype him.

The legend of fouf is one video from zero empires on YouTube or klaymen47 in the best game ever.

 

[Lightysword]

They casted the best players at that time. Doesn’t matter if the name was viper. If I would have been the best player they would have casted me. But yes they also took viper and Hera etc.

But memb for example streamed 8 hours a day Black Forest 4v4.
T90 did his low Elo legends and also the others had their series with normal players.

Pro players, especially special players are not needed. You could take any other player and hype him.

The legend of fouf is one video from zero empires on YouTube or klaymen47 in the best game ever.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Low Elo Legends relatively new? I'ds say that T90 already kind of was a made streamer when he introduced the format - without a doubt that helped his growth as well, and I'm still amazed how popular it is but he already was very established at least when Low Elo Legends started?

 

[Influenza]

They casted the best players at that time. Doesn’t matter if the name was viper. If I would have been the best player they would have casted me. But yes they also took viper and Hera etc.

But memb for example streamed 8 hours a day Black Forest 4v4.
T90 did his low Elo legends and also the others had their series with normal players.

Pro players, especially special players are not needed. You could take any other player and hype him.

The legend of fouf is one video from zero empires on YouTube or klaymen47 in the best game ever.

Actually it does matter if the name was viper. Those streamers first built their following among viewers who were already interested in competitive aoe2. Those people would definitely tune in for Jordan vs Viper, but not so much dimbo36 vs armoredwarrior79. Only after this audience was captured did t90 move onto content that no one other than casual aoe2 players/viewers would enjoy

 

[oozkan]

Don't forget without the players we wouldn't have any tournaments to organize. All these casters and organizers basically feed off the the high level ability of the players.

Well too much player-centric organizations can also fail. Like Lakers, Heat on the other hand with opposite approach and shining.

And if players are more important, why did we create a drama when T90 moved to Facebook..?

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

About the current point of discussion: I would say having the names of the best players is not everything, but still quite important. Casters would have content, tournaments would happen, etc., but it is true that players and teams with the most fans generate the most stream/video viewers which then again is more likely to be financially significant for a person who has their main income from casting their games.
Example: If aM vs. GL is the final, it is guaranteed to have more viewers than if one of them loses in the semifinal, even if that meant that the final still has the best 2 teams at that moment and with those settings.
And for example DauT or JorDan still generate(d) more viewers than some other players when they are/were not in the shape to most likely be top 8, sometimes top 4, just because they have more fans.

Regarding some other points: Yes, everything could be more professional, including admin work, but admin work is usually either for free or more in the range of $0.x-2/h (not considering something like RBW 5/6, Hidden Cup 4 or KotD 4 where funds just were massive).
But reality is, you can't pay an admin as much as the winning team of a tournament, even if they put in more work. Same as football players are transfered for $100,000,000, while the most succesful coaches maybe for $5,000,000 if for any fee. Certain jobs just get paid better and admin work in AoE 2 definitely usually is not something people do just for the money or power.

I also have to emphasize that having to give admin losses and applying fines for broken rules is something every admin is very uncomfortable with. It always hurts and you might feel unhappy about it for a couple of days. In terms of fairness towards other players it is necessary in some situations though.

[This is all just in general - I don't want to share an opinion about the specific BoA 3 case.]

 

[Hunyadi_]

Must be a troll 100%

T90 content is basically casting low Elo guys which made him the biggest aoe streamer.

If it wasn’t about the organizers of tournaments and castes this game would be dead long time ago.

How would anybody know about Hera/viper/bact etc if there weren’t people like memb/t90/nili /zeroempries who were screaming their names into the camera in front of 10000 viewers ?

I don't think top level players have any trouble attracting viewers on Twitch. Just look at other games that don't have tournaments such as Diablo 2. MrLLama regularly attracts thousands of viewers playing D2R. He doesn't play in any tournaments. He's simply the best D2R player in the world.

My point wasn't to put down organizers and casters, they definitely provide a service and entertainment. My point is that the players are the most important resource we have, let's be careful with "punishing" them because they can just one day decide to literally quit.

MBL doesn't need this, he's got a job. Do we want to lose a player of his caliber because of a missed interview which nobody watches anyway? Like let's get real here for a second.

 

[Orisseus]

I find it interesting that there are people who think it is best if the admins have the power to enforce rules unevenly and give people leeway because the rules are vague.. I think that is worse for everyone. IMHO the rules should be specific and evenly applied. Like if the rule stated that the people who played in a game should be available post-game for 15 minutes in case of an interview, then they can simply produce a chat log showing a play disconnected before that time is up and then boom - no hassle no controversy it's black and white.

 

[King_Marv]

I don't think top level players have any trouble attracting viewers on Twitch. Just look at other games that don't have tournaments such as Diablo 2. MrLLama regularly attracts thousands of viewers playing D2R. He doesn't play in any tournaments. He's simply the best D2R player in the world.

My point wasn't to put down organizers and casters, they definitely provide a service and entertainment. My point is that the players are the most important resource we have, let's be careful with "punishing" them because they can just one day decide to literally quit.

MBL doesn't need this, he's got a job. Do we want to lose a player of his caliber because of a missed interview which nobody watches anyway? Like let's get real here for a second.

My opinion:

If he quits he quits. I really don’t care.
It’s not the first time he was disrespectful towards tournament organizers. He got for example banned from Rage forest 3 for being disrespectful in RF 2.

I also really don’t care for any other pro. But I care for the people who I play with more or less every day.

 

[T90Official]

Actually it does matter if the name was viper. Those streamers first built their following among viewers who were already interested in competitive aoe2. Those people would definitely tune in for Jordan vs Viper, but not so much dimbo36 vs armoredwarrior79. Only after this audience was captured did t90 move onto content that no one other than casual aoe2 players/viewers would enjoy

Viper left the game for a year right after I started. The details are a little hazy but I seem to recall casting this high rated "flu" guy one time due to lack of games. If my memory serves me correct that was the day I learned that rating doesn't always lead to entertainment and I took my ass immediately to the new player lobby. "Amazing Learn" on voobly or as we now say "Low Elo Legends" would have never happened if not for this experience and for that I'm forever grateful!

 

[MuscleChamp]

what a nice way to call him noob, I like

 

[Influenza]

Viper left the game for a year right after I started. The details are a little hazy but I seem to recall casting this high rated "flu" guy one time due to lack of games. If my memory serves me correct that was the day I learned that rating doesn't always lead to entertainment and I took my ass immediately to the new player lobby. "Amazing Learn" on voobly or as we now say "Low Elo Legends" would have never happened if not for this experience and for that I'm forever grateful!

Don't you remember casting 5 hours of the nightly mbl vs hera 1v1s? not sure if you caught the games though might have been more focused on the birds flying about the map