Aftermath takes issue with Tournament Rule Enforcement (-$300) | MembTV's BOA3

[willdbeast]

Why would someone play devils advocate for a person that has and continues to make arbitrary acts and statements in his aoe career -maybe not as punishing- than anyone in this situation?

I'm not advocating for anyone I'm just offering my opinion since it's an interesting broader topic then disagreeing when people say stuff I find stupid, but that's a full time job here

 

[TopperHarley]

It is obviously perfectly reasonable to discuss this topic in all length here but i would like to remind everyone that we are talking about 3% of the pricepool (or $300), which is literally ~$30 dollars per player (after tax). You can probably buy one doner kebab with that in Norway if you are lucky.

Also:
Shouting something like "MEMB STOLE $300 FROM US AND PUT IN HIS OWN POCKET", without even knowing whether thats true (apparently not, as its going into future tournaments) is just very childish behavior. Some aM members should ask themselves whether their own behavior is keeping them away from getting a big sponsor involved with their team.

This tournament was so great in many aspects: great organization by Memb/Chrazini etc. and amazing plays by many teams. aM played outstandigly well and deserved the 1st place, especially MbL was extremely impressing and (imo) the decisive player in many games that were close but aM decided for them in the end.

Bottom line: The trashtalk in this thread is a bit too much for these peanuts, however the drama is obviously appreciated (and really the essence of AoeZone)

 

[Seahorsegallop]

My take part 2, as more allegations, claims and counter claims bubble up.

It is not good for AOE II scene that a top team is arguing with a top caster over this in public, any claims that it will improve things going forward is IMO wrong, there will be more rules, more bad feelings and more grief.

Grow up lads, take the 3% fine and make sure you read the rules in future, clarify them if you are not happy and don't sign up if not prepared to take the decisions of the Admin of the tournament.

AOE II scene is small enough the the top players and casters know each other well and with more RBW tourneys and hopefully other LAN events, meet each other in person, the atmosphere at these events translates in the tourney for players AND viewers and it would be a shame to have people falling out big time over an issue like this.

 

[miek]

On top of that, you have a rule which has already been quoted on this thread (7.2 if I remember correctly) which Memb used to threaten us about going public with this issue. Yes, you heard it right, the winners of BoA might lose more than just $300 because we decided to complain to the only place we can do so about what we thought was already an unfair arbitrary punishment. So much for doing tournaments " fOr thE lOvE oF tHe gAmE", taking close to 2 months worth of minimum wage in the countries of half our team sure is great for it!

Wait, is this real? What kind of oppressive bullshit is this.

Next time AM and GL should just band together to not participate until this line is redacted from the rules & regulations. Can't believe all these teams agreed to this.

 

[Potkeny]

Can't believe all these teams agreed to this.

I can't believe all these teams actually read the rules before agreeing to them.

 

[LowEloNobody]

The idea was to simply use the money for future events. Though, I must admit that I wish we'd redistributed it now to avoid that part of the controversy. I'll be honest; it is not something we spend days contemplating about, as we did not expect to be accused of embezzlement.
The best thing we can do is correct this going forward and make it clear what money goes where in case of penalties.

We do not personally benefit from penalising players. That would, indeed, be extremely corrupt.

To be clear, I'm not accusing memb of embezzlement, and don't mean to imply that in any way.
I'm a fairly big fan of prize-pool reduction for breaking the rules, even if this instance seems to leave something to be desired

However, I believe there were other finest during BoA right?
So BoA is no longer a $30,000 tournament, since those fines will go towards other events. That seems like a pretty big deal

 

[paradox303]

I can't believe all these teams actually read the rules before agreeing to them.

Players read handbooks?

 

[Snizl]

On top of that, you have a rule which has already been quoted on this thread (7.2 if I remember correctly) which Memb used to threaten us about going public with this issue.

7 coMMUNicatioN & coNfiDeNtialitY (Yes, this is a straight copy paste from the rulebook that resulted in this formatting)
Communicate efficiently and confidentially.
7.1 Once registered for the tournament, participants must regularly check all platforms
associated with the event for anything that may concern them.
7.2 The contents of private messages or correspondences that are not available to the public with
the tournament administration are deemed strictly confidential

Both those rules indeed don't sound too great for the players, as it actually exempts admins from directly having to contact the players at all in any case, though I do understand the probable goal of this rule.
Same as the second though. I can totally understand that private messages should be deemed confidential in normal circumstances. It is making situations like the one at hand quite difficult, but I also don't really think this rule is being broken here. The rule does not say "The players cannot release contents of direct communication to the public", confidentiality affects both sites and I believe the first breach of this has been done by Chrazini here, if you want to consider anything said here a breach of confidentiality.

 

[Rorarimbo]

It is obviously perfectly reasonable to discuss this topic in all length here but i would like to remind everyone that we are talking about 3% of the pricepool (or $300), which is literally ~$30 dollars per player (after tax). You can probably buy one doner kebab with that in Norway if you are lucky.

Also:
Shouting something like "MEMB STOLE $300 FROM US AND PUT IN HIS OWN POCKET", without even knowing whether thats true (apparently not, as its going into future tournaments) is just very childish behavior. Some aM members should ask themselves whether their own behavior is keeping them away from getting a big sponsor involved with their team.

This tournament was so great in many aspects: great organization by Memb/Chrazini etc. and amazing plays by many teams. aM played outstandigly well and deserved the 1st place, especially MbL was extremely impressing and (imo) the decisive player in many games that were close but aM decided for them in the end.

Bottom line: The trashtalk in this thread is a bit too much for these peanuts, however the drama is obviously appreciated (and really the essence of AoeZone)

Actually, the players were informed where the money was going. None of us has any financial or another benefit in pursuing these fines. Still MbL decided to go public with this angle.

In total there are 4 teams fined with percentages ranging for the other three teams between 8 and 50. When explained the reasoning these teams responded with: " Fair enough", "Ok, thanks for the answser",and "Ok thanks". I am sure they were not happy, I was not happy to have to deliver bad news. But we all need to try and improve things and move the scene to a more professional level.

 

[LowEloNobody]

Actually, the players were informed where the money was going. None of us has any financial or another benefit in pursuing these fines. Still MbL decided to go public with this angle.

In total there are 4 teams fined with percentages ranging for the other three teams between 8 and 50. When explained the reasoning these teams responded with: " Fair enough", "Ok, thanks for the answser",and "Ok thanks". I am sure they were not happy, I was not happy to have to deliver bad news. But we all need to try and improve things and move the scene to a more professional level.

What was the total amount of fines across all teams in BoA?

 

[Rorarimbo]

What was the total amount of fines across all teams in BoA?

We may decide to disclose all fines but until then I will abstain to share this info.

 

[akku]

In total there are 4 teams fined with percentages ranging for the other three teams between 8 and 50. When explained the reasoning these teams responded with: " Fair enough", "Ok, thanks for the answser",and "Ok thanks". I am sure they were not happy, I was not happy to have to deliver bad news. But we all need to try and improve things and move the scene to a more professional level.

50% fine for some team??

I assume it was for the Vietnam team for no showing lol

 

[Chanson]

I agree that the fines should probably be redistributed in the current tournament rather than in future tournaments. However, the bitter aspersions, which lack both detail and evidence, against the host and administrators reflect extremely poorly on those making them. If there is a case to make, you should actually make it.

 

[petermcpete]

The best thing about this is that Hearttt, the man who contributes least in the tournaments, is the most gobby in this thread. Got to be good for something I guess

 

[LowEloNobody]

We may decide to disclose all fines but until then I will abstain to share this info.

That's not a great process tbh...

 

[LockeAoC]

We may decide to disclose all fines but until then I will abstain to share this info.

Probably would be best to disclose fines and infractions.

 

[PeterPoopiepants]

There seems to be a lot of anger and frustration on the side of @Hearttt and @_MbL_ which is understandable. But making statements in that state of mind never leads to anything good. A dispute is best settled when one has cooled off, because then you are able to see things much clearer. You have brought forth very serious allegations against Memb and his admin team, calling their practices shady, Chrazini a liar and claiming embezzlement of the fine money. I understand that you feel wronged, but you are damaging the reputations of and the relations with people you have known for many many years.

Maybe you truly have been wronged, maybe you haven't. Or maybe, when everyone has cooled off and reflected on what has been said, mistakes can be admitted and an agreement can be reached. Privately. There is no need to involve the many drama frogs of this website. You can see it in some of the replies, it's all a big joke to them. They don't care about any of it, they just want to be entertained by people tearing each other apart. Don't give them the satisfaction.

 

[Lightysword]

After reading some of the stuff here and the constant discussions about rules and so on I believe a neutral court of arbritration or some other form of dispute resolution could be useful for all tournaments. It should have people with some kind of law degree, cause frankly I was quite stunned by what Chrazini said in terms of the written rules.
At least from what @IYIyTh quoted, having a german law degree, I can only say that it would make sense to wanting to interview the players, but as some teams have more players than people playing one could also imply that everyone has to be present for interviews at all times regardless of having played or not. The rule in itself is quite wide and demands loads of interpretation.

Regardless of what was communicated with the players concerning interviews and stuff just enforcing a penalty without a proper form of neutral dispute resolution with that kind of rule set always will feel quite arbitrary to me and it looks like to other people as well.

 

[Sigismund]

There seems to be a lot of anger and frustration on the side of @Hearttt and @_MbL_ which is understandable. But making statements in that state of mind never leads to anything good. A dispute is best settled when one has cooled off, because then you are able to see things much clearer. You have brought forth very serious allegations against Memb and his admin team, calling their practices shady, Chrazini a liar and claiming embezzlement of the fine money. I understand that you feel wronged, but you are damaging the reputations of and the relations with people you have known for many many years.

Maybe you truly have been wronged, maybe you haven't. Or maybe, when everyone has cooled off and reflected on what has been said, mistakes can be admitted and an agreement can be reached. Privately. There is no need to involve the many drama frogs of this website. You can see it in some of the replies, it's all a big joke to them. They don't care about any of it, they just want to be entertained by people tearing each other apart. Don't give them the satisfaction.

What's so wrong with it being public and transparent? If this case went to court, it'd be public too. It's normal for disputes to happen and they can be resolved publicly too.

While I can find it reasonable to give a fine for not attending to the interview, it can't be done in such manner. 1 month after the fact, just before payouts? Seriously? How can you expect players to be professional and have such amateurish admin decisions at the same time? You need to inform the party about the fine in reasonable time, which would be within 24 or maybe 48 hours after it happened in this case. Otherwise might as well fine admins for incompetency.

 

[MrIster24]

I am so happy I invested in DramaCoin a week ago, this thread has already caused an uptick of over 400% in my shares.

 

[Influenza]

I've already proven chrazini's relationship with the truth to be less than spotless. Notice how none of the players received any extra compensation even though the expectations on them with webcams, voice communication, etc. only increased from before the tournament began. Notice how they are more concerned with extracting as much content from the players as possible rather than actually hosting a fair, competitive tournament. There are proven cheaters playing in their events, but they only care about a 5 min interview instead of taking necessary measures to at least deter cheating. But nah **** all that 0 spec delay 0 stream delay cheat all you want boys

 

[doacid]

What's so wrong with it being public and transparent? If this case went to court, it'd be public too. It's normal for disputes to happen and they can be resolved publicly too.

While I can find it reasonable to give a fine for not attending to the interview, it can't be done in such manner. 1 month after the fact, just before payouts? Seriously? How can you expect players to be professional and have such amateurish admin decisions at the same time? You need to inform the party about the fine in reasonable time, which would be within 24 or maybe 48 hours after it happened in this case. Otherwise might as well fine admins for incompetency.

You aren't going to resolve any dispute if you come blasting in, weapons armed. In most circumstances, if you're accusing the other side of intentionally committing the worst possible actions (given the situation), what else is left to resolve? At that point you have nothing to work out, you're just venting.

This is precisely why Peter Poopie-pants' advice was good. Cool your head before you walk yourself into a situation that isn't helping you.

A more mature approach would be to cool off and see if you still think the same way after a while. If you still do, then contact other teams and discuss the issue. Find out if they have a different perspective than you do. Reassess your view, come to common grounds with them.

Chances are you'll see things differently along the way. You might even end up thinking the hosts/admins were indeed trying to act as best as they could and they weren't abusing their position, stealing from you, etc.
But even in the case that they were indeed abusive... taking this approach would allow you to come to a consensus with the rest of the pros and take common action in a professional way.

The way aM went about this was the worst possible. It came off as petty, overly aggressive and it made them look like the ones in the wrong. It is also giving good ammunition to the aoezone trolls who are always happy to take things to the extreme and flame all they can 11

 

[Hunyadi_]

There are players' unions in other sports.

 

[IYIyTh]

What's so wrong with it being public and transparent? If this case went to court, it'd be public too. It's normal for disputes to happen and they can be resolved publicly too.

While I can find it reasonable to give a fine for not attending to the interview, it can't be done in such manner. 1 month after the fact, just before payouts? Seriously? How can you expect players to be professional and have such amateurish admin decisions at the same time? You need to inform the party about the fine in reasonable time, which would be within 24 or maybe 48 hours after it happened in this case. Otherwise might as well fine admins for incompetency.

What would have informing them of the fine/rules violation 24/48 hours later changed?

I'm not sure how you can consider admins incompetent for upholding the standards in the rulebook, which apparently were not broken just during the finals but in another interview (cited hy Chrazini in this thread) or delays in starting sets (brought up by players outside this forum). While one could argue they would know about fines earlier, it's not as if tournament admins are paid a full time salary -- or the timing of the fine impacts the reason it was levied. I think aftermath has complained about tournament payouts taking so long in the past due to Microsoft delays, it would appear the fine was shown just before their winnings distrobution which makes sense. Could they have been told they'd be short sooner? Sure. Not sure it ultimately matters though.


I think it's perfectly to discuss the amount of the fine or if you think it'sdeserved, but the idea that no rule was broken, that this was a first offense appear by all accounts to be incorrect.

Such measures probably exist so that players don't feel they can arbitrarily ditch production commitments and eat the fine. This obviously helps ensure that the production value pitched by the host who is investing time, effort and resources into the event and the sponsors are receiving the production value envisioned.

One time allowances add up and can be unfair to others who have no trouble adhering to the rules.

 

[IYIyTh]

There are players' unions in other sports.

I still think this would be a terrible idea by those pushing for it. Ultimately the unions would need to settle on more concrete rules violation penalties that would likely see more fines than there are now. A union also serves to promote the value of the sport and the production and availability infractions that seem to most malign aoe2 would not disappear with the creation of a union -- if anything penalties would likely be more frequent and codified (less arbitrary, likely similar in amount that exists now (% of winnings most fair to scale appropriately(, but even less ability to be lenient in order to be fair.)

There is also the drama of holding prominent players accountable for their actions when they are your rival or friend. Careful what you wish for sort of thing.