This post is intended mostly for fellow map scripting nerds, but would be great to get feedback from everyone.
The feedback I've seen for the 9-Villager start has been mostly positive, so I expect we'll be seeing more of it in tournaments in the future. We've now had 3 tournaments---DWL, Wallhalla, and Warlords---use slightly different variations on the start. I think there's still more tinkering that can be done to improve it, and I've read lots of interesting suggestions during the tournament. So let's discuss some of the things that are and are not possible currently in map scripts, and some of the ways the 9 Villager start might be improved in the future.
XS Scripts
It wouldn't be a post about the Definitive Edition if it didn't start with a bug report! In addition to random map scripts, DE has "xs scripts," which allow map scripters to use additional features in their maps. For example, we can use xs scripts to adjust resources individually for each civ, and could remove the -30 Wood penalty from the Huns, since they don't need the starting Houses.
The problem is that these scripts don't work for spectators. You know how a custom random map transfers when you enter a lobby? The xs script needs to transfer too. And right now they don't transfer properly. There are workarounds, such as manually copy and pasting files within the temporary folder or using additional mods for changes, but I wouldn't want to rely upon them for a large tournament. Having one single mod with maps for a tournament is all that should be necessary.
So there are adjustments we might want to do, and potentially could do in the future, that were not possible for Warlords. If 9 Villager starts become more common, tournament hosts will need to push the development studio to prioritize fixing the bug. It's a pretty big limitation to have such a powerful feature unusable due to this file transfer error.
Anyway, on to design questions about how to adjust the 9-Villager start.
Sheep
Standard games give players 4+2+2 Sheep, that is, 4 Sheep near the TC, and two other groups of 2 Sheep. DWL adjusted this to 4+2, 4 Sheep near the TC and another group of 2 Sheep. For Warlords we stuck with the standard 4+2+2. I wanted to avoid "nerfing" civs as much as possible. The Britons, Tatars, Gurjaras, and even Mayans would get a bit of a penalty if they were "missing" 2 of their Sheep.
Perhaps these civs could have some kind of adjustment made (extra food, or be given an extra sheep) to make up for this? I think a 2+2+2 pattern, with 2 Sheep under the TC and two groups of 2 Sheep at the normal distance so you still have to scout for them, would be the right way to do the start. But I'm not sure whether civs with Sheep bonuses should be adjusted, or what exactly those adjustments should be.
Starting Houses
The starting Houses can block off resources or just generally be rather annoying. And on some maps (e.g. Border Dispute, Yucatan, or Migration) the starting locations around the TCs are already very cramped, with the Houses just making this worse.
One suggestion I liked was to give the starting TC an additional 10 population space (this would take an xs script). This would be just the starting TC, with other TCs giving their normal 5. That way we wouldn't need to bother placing the Houses. Perhaps it makes the start lose too much "character" though, if the Houses aren't there.
This could affect the douche if a TC is deleted and then rebuilt with less pop space. But, well, I don't think that's too crucial of a concern.
Scouting
I've seen a concern that the loss of 2:30 at the start of the game gives too little time to scout. Of course in a normal game players will have scouted the area near their starting TC by then. Here are a few of the suggestions I've seen for addressing this:
On the other hand, the lack of Scouting makes it riskier to go for a Deer push (where it seems Deer pushing may be more common now than it was in the past), making players choose between the Deer and Scouting more than in normal RM. Some people might actually prefer that.
What are people's thoughts here?
Straggler Trees
One small thing I noticed was that some other maps just added an additional straggler tree for a total of 6 around the TC. I kept this to a total of 5 for the Warlords maps, and also ensured the tree does not spawn adjacent to another tree.
The side of the TC the straggler spawns on can make a huge difference on some maps. It could lead to easier Boars on Border Dispute, or faster walls on BF. Usually this isn't an important detail, but on some maps it's important to control which side of the TC the straggler spawns on.
Nomad
We used a 9 Villager start for Nomad, while giving an additional 50 Wood so players could construct two Houses right away. Personally I feel like Nomad really benefits from the additional scouting and quicker start you get with all of the Villagers.
There was a suggestion that, instead of 9 Villagers, Nomad starts with 6 Villagers and 3 Fishing Ships. For the current DE version of Nomad with water on all 4 sides, that seems like a reasonable way to start as well, with the 3 Fishing Ships spread out around the outside. Would be interested in hearing thoughts about that.
Individual Civilization Adjustments
Assuming that the xs transfer bug is fixed and we can adjust resources individually for each civ, what adjustments should we make? The Chinese are the most obvious civ to address, but we could open up a can of worms with changing bonuses. Scrolling through the tech tree real quick, here are the changes I've come up with:
The Chinese are clearly the most important to address.
But otherwise, I don't think these bonuses are too important here, but it'd still be nice to get them working consistently.
The feedback I've seen for the 9-Villager start has been mostly positive, so I expect we'll be seeing more of it in tournaments in the future. We've now had 3 tournaments---DWL, Wallhalla, and Warlords---use slightly different variations on the start. I think there's still more tinkering that can be done to improve it, and I've read lots of interesting suggestions during the tournament. So let's discuss some of the things that are and are not possible currently in map scripts, and some of the ways the 9 Villager start might be improved in the future.
XS Scripts
It wouldn't be a post about the Definitive Edition if it didn't start with a bug report! In addition to random map scripts, DE has "xs scripts," which allow map scripters to use additional features in their maps. For example, we can use xs scripts to adjust resources individually for each civ, and could remove the -30 Wood penalty from the Huns, since they don't need the starting Houses.
The problem is that these scripts don't work for spectators. You know how a custom random map transfers when you enter a lobby? The xs script needs to transfer too. And right now they don't transfer properly. There are workarounds, such as manually copy and pasting files within the temporary folder or using additional mods for changes, but I wouldn't want to rely upon them for a large tournament. Having one single mod with maps for a tournament is all that should be necessary.
So there are adjustments we might want to do, and potentially could do in the future, that were not possible for Warlords. If 9 Villager starts become more common, tournament hosts will need to push the development studio to prioritize fixing the bug. It's a pretty big limitation to have such a powerful feature unusable due to this file transfer error.
Anyway, on to design questions about how to adjust the 9-Villager start.
Sheep
Standard games give players 4+2+2 Sheep, that is, 4 Sheep near the TC, and two other groups of 2 Sheep. DWL adjusted this to 4+2, 4 Sheep near the TC and another group of 2 Sheep. For Warlords we stuck with the standard 4+2+2. I wanted to avoid "nerfing" civs as much as possible. The Britons, Tatars, Gurjaras, and even Mayans would get a bit of a penalty if they were "missing" 2 of their Sheep.
Perhaps these civs could have some kind of adjustment made (extra food, or be given an extra sheep) to make up for this? I think a 2+2+2 pattern, with 2 Sheep under the TC and two groups of 2 Sheep at the normal distance so you still have to scout for them, would be the right way to do the start. But I'm not sure whether civs with Sheep bonuses should be adjusted, or what exactly those adjustments should be.
Starting Houses
The starting Houses can block off resources or just generally be rather annoying. And on some maps (e.g. Border Dispute, Yucatan, or Migration) the starting locations around the TCs are already very cramped, with the Houses just making this worse.
One suggestion I liked was to give the starting TC an additional 10 population space (this would take an xs script). This would be just the starting TC, with other TCs giving their normal 5. That way we wouldn't need to bother placing the Houses. Perhaps it makes the start lose too much "character" though, if the Houses aren't there.
This could affect the douche if a TC is deleted and then rebuilt with less pop space. But, well, I don't think that's too crucial of a concern.
Scouting
I've seen a concern that the loss of 2:30 at the start of the game gives too little time to scout. Of course in a normal game players will have scouted the area near their starting TC by then. Here are a few of the suggestions I've seen for addressing this:
- Give a larger revealed area around the starting TC.
- Use the same Line of Sight in the Dark Age for the Scout as in the Feudal Age (that's +2, and similarly Eagle Scouts would get their Tracking benefit from the start
- Start players with 2 Scout
- Increase Scout speed in the Dark Age.
On the other hand, the lack of Scouting makes it riskier to go for a Deer push (where it seems Deer pushing may be more common now than it was in the past), making players choose between the Deer and Scouting more than in normal RM. Some people might actually prefer that.
What are people's thoughts here?
Straggler Trees
One small thing I noticed was that some other maps just added an additional straggler tree for a total of 6 around the TC. I kept this to a total of 5 for the Warlords maps, and also ensured the tree does not spawn adjacent to another tree.
The side of the TC the straggler spawns on can make a huge difference on some maps. It could lead to easier Boars on Border Dispute, or faster walls on BF. Usually this isn't an important detail, but on some maps it's important to control which side of the TC the straggler spawns on.
Nomad
We used a 9 Villager start for Nomad, while giving an additional 50 Wood so players could construct two Houses right away. Personally I feel like Nomad really benefits from the additional scouting and quicker start you get with all of the Villagers.
There was a suggestion that, instead of 9 Villagers, Nomad starts with 6 Villagers and 3 Fishing Ships. For the current DE version of Nomad with water on all 4 sides, that seems like a reasonable way to start as well, with the 3 Fishing Ships spread out around the outside. Would be interested in hearing thoughts about that.
Individual Civilization Adjustments
Assuming that the xs transfer bug is fixed and we can adjust resources individually for each civ, what adjustments should we make? The Chinese are the most obvious civ to address, but we could open up a can of worms with changing bonuses. Scrolling through the tech tree real quick, here are the changes I've come up with:
- Chinese Food and Villagers: DWL subtracted 100 Food from all civs, but this has the effect that the Chinese start with negative 100 Food. I think it's too gimmicky for a civ to have negative Food. With xs scripting I think starting with 0 Food and 11 Villagers might be the right compromise to make here, and most other civs could have 100 Food.
- Loom for Chinese and Mayans: Should these civs start with these techs already researched (and -50 Gold)? It doesn't matter much for the Chinese (who still won't have Food), but since the Mayans still get two Houses they don't start Housed. Mayans could start with 9 Villagers instead of 10, but get Loom instead of the Vil.
- Huns Wood: Huns should start with 100 Wood like normal.
- Malians: Malians save Wood on their Houses, they could start with extra 8 wood to make up for this. - Hindustanis: Should they receive the extra 30 Food they would have saved on their first 6 Villagers?
- Britons, Tatars, Gurjaras, Mayans: What compensation should they get for missing 2 Sheep (if the map has 6 Sheep in total)?
- Should Gurjaras even have 6 Villagers around a starting Sheep, or some different way to collect Food at the start so they can keep the Sheep in their Mill?
- Should the Mongols (or their team in a TG) get a bonus for the "extra" scouting time they missed?
The Chinese are clearly the most important to address.
But otherwise, I don't think these bonuses are too important here, but it'd still be nice to get them working consistently.
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